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Which is more manipulated and/or corrupt.....

cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

Gold or bitcoin?

Please discuss.

Excuses are tools of the ignorant

Knowledge is the enemy of fear

Comments

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I at least don't believe that gold is artificially suppressed. Relative to other prices, it's more overpriced than it has been at any point in the last few centuries, except for 1980 and 2011.

    Bitcoin represents one of the worst aspects of the current asset bubble, the greatest by far in the history of civilization.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,016 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021 2:17PM

    Which one has its price determined by bankers. LOL

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    Which one has its price determined by bankers. LOL

    Seems many of the same "bankers" have been mentioned in the same sentence in regards to both gold and bitcon. No?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,282 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021 4:39PM

    I believe they hail from Bulgaria mostly. They think everything is manipulated when the price isn't where they want it to be.

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,016 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021 4:42PM

    How easily we forget that bankers are in business to make profit. They would never break the law. LOL

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,016 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021 5:07PM

    @WCC said:
    I at least don't believe that gold is artificially suppressed. Relative to other prices, it's more overpriced than it has been at any point in the last few centuries, except for 1980 and 2011.

    Gold is not exempt from inflation. In fact its primary role as money is to keep up with and protect from inflation. It has been doing its job.

    Bitcoin represents one of the worst aspects of the current asset bubble, the greatest by far in the history of civilization.

    One could argue that its tremendous profits make it one of the best aspects of the current asset bubble, unless of course one missed out on them. Cryptos are simply reflecting a loss of faith in our central bank, it's actions, the dollar's future and the economy as a whole. Those turning to them see them currently free from the influence of those who have so badly influenced our currency. Gold should be putting in the same remarkable performance. There lies your proof that one of them has it price suppressed - the one that does not have it's price determined by actual demand.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    Cryptos are simply reflecting a loss of faith in our central bank, it's actions, the dollar's future and the economy as a whole. Those turning to them see them currently free from the influence of those who have so badly influenced our currency. Gold should be putting in the same remarkable performance. There lies your proof that one of them has it price suppressed - the one that does not have it's price determined by actual demand.

    So youre saying bitcon is not manipulated?

    You see no motivation for bitcoin backers to influence its price, or more importantly, its narrative?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,016 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021 6:27AM

    @cohodk said:

    @derryb said:

    Cryptos are simply reflecting a loss of faith in our central bank, it's actions, the dollar's future and the economy as a whole. Those turning to them see them currently free from the influence of those who have so badly influenced our currency. Gold should be putting in the same remarkable performance. There lies your proof that one of them has it price suppressed - the one that does not have it's price determined by actual demand.

    So youre saying bitcon is not manipulated?

    You see no motivation for bitcoin backers to influence its price, or more importantly, its narrative?

    I'm saying there is no proof that bitcoin is being illegally manipulated. There are mountains of DOJ fines to prove that precious metals futures markets have been manipulated.

    Motivation to influence price is present in all markets and not all such influence is illegal. Do not confuse illegal price manipulation (such as the admitted behavior of DOJ charged COMEX bullion bankers) with "influence" (such as advertising, corporate press releases and yes, even the bid and sell price offered by investors) that has the intent to change market price movement, but within the confines of trading laws and regulation.

    If you're going to apply cancel culture mentality to bitcoin at least bring some evidence.

    The manipulation of bitcoin pricing will appear, but it will come from the same people who do not want gold competing with dollars.

    More manipulated and corrupt than gold and bitcoin markets are the governments who restrict rather than expand creative and alternative solutions to inflation and their dying currencies. Because bitcoin is a direct threat to financial repression and its currency controls, its days, as we have witnessed with gold, as an unbridled alternative to fiat currency are numbered. At best, gold is left only to protect against money creation and its current drizzle and then eventual downpour of inflation.

    While bitcoin has proven to be the best, most recent short term play, there is no question it is not a long term bet any sensible investor should plan on taking. It is governments, with their policy, tax law and financial regulations (not investors) who lay out the path where long term money will be successfully funneled. And it will continue to be in those assets which put profit directly into the pockets of those who hold the strings of government puppets. This does not and will not include precious metals, crypto currencies or any viable alternative to failing currencies that does not put profit in the pockets of the puppet masters.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,016 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021 6:31AM

    @derryb said:

    @cohodk said:

    @derryb said:

    Cryptos are simply reflecting a loss of faith in our central bank, it's actions, the dollar's future and the economy as a whole. Those turning to them see them currently free from the influence of those who have so badly influenced our currency. Gold should be putting in the same remarkable performance. There lies your proof that one of them has it price suppressed - the one that does not have it's price determined by actual demand.

    So youre saying bitcon is not manipulated?

    You see no motivation for bitcoin backers to influence its price, or more importantly, its narrative?

    I'm saying there is no proof that bitcoin is being illegally manipulated. There are mountains of DOJ fines to prove that precious metals futures markets have been manipulated. Look for illegal manipulation of bitcoin pricing when it shows up in the futures market. And to get there look for it to first appear in an ETF.

    Motivation to influence price is present in all markets and not all such influence is illegal. Do not confuse illegal price manipulation (such as the admitted behavior of DOJ charged COMEX bullion bankers) with "influence" (such as advertising, corporate press releases and yes, even the bid and sell price offered by investors) that has the intent to change market price movement, but within the confines of trading laws and regulation.

    If you're going to apply cancel culture mentality to bitcoin at least bring some evidence.

    The manipulation of bitcoin pricing will appear, but it will come from the same people who do not want gold competing with dollars.

    More manipulated and corrupt than gold and bitcoin markets are the governments who restrict rather than expand creative and alternative solutions to inflation and their dying currencies. Because bitcoin is a direct threat to financial repression and its currency controls, its days, as we have witnessed with gold, as an unbridled alternative to fiat currency are numbered. At best, gold is left only to protect against money creation and its current drizzle and then eventual downpour of inflation.

    While bitcoin has proven to be the best, most recent short term play, there is no question it is not a long term bet any sensible investor should plan on taking. It is governments, with their policy, tax law and financial regulations (not investors) who lay out the path where long term money will be successfully funneled. And it will continue to be in those assets which put profit directly into the pockets of those who hold the strings of government puppets. This does not and will not include precious metals, crypto currencies or any viable alternative to failing currencies that does not put profit in the pockets of the puppet masters. Had Wall St. created bitcoin it would likely be selling at $500K.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,263 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd have to say that neither gold nor bitcoin is corrupt, but there are most certainly many corrupt players in both markets. Gold is just a refined metal, bitcoin is just data. Our biggest problem with corruption is with the banks and the politicians.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @WCC said:
    I at least don't believe that gold is artificially suppressed. Relative to other prices, it's more overpriced than it has been at any point in the last few centuries, except for 1980 and 2011.

    Gold is not exempt from inflation. In fact its primary role as money is to keep up with and protect from inflation. It has been doing its job.

    The point of my comments is that it's relative price performance since the 1970's better supports that it's price has not been successfully suppressed. Gold isn't historically cheap versus most tangible goods.

    @derryb said:

    One could argue that its tremendous profits make it one of the best aspects of the current asset bubble, unless of course one missed out on them. Cryptos are simply reflecting a loss of faith in our central bank, it's actions, the dollar's future and the economy as a whole. Those turning to them see them currently free from the influence of those who have so badly influenced our currency. Gold should be putting in the same remarkable performance. There lies your proof that one of them has it price suppressed - the one that does not have it's price determined by actual demand.

    I don't believe cryptos performance has anything whatsoever to do with what you wrote. It's a pure speculative mania and like all manias, there is no logic to it. It has value due to the mania but unlike even fiat currency, no one is required to accept it for anything.

    I also find your gold claim to be completely unsubstantiated. If the price was based upon reason, why should it be worth so much more when it's already so historically overpriced? Are you actually trying to claim it isn't?

    As one example, right now, someone can buy a typical home in the US for between five and six BTC. Should someone be able to buy a house for equivalent ounces of gold? That makes absolutely no sense given that its never been worth even a fraction of this value previously.

    Gold is already overpriced and the reason we can know it is because the purpose of money isn't to acquire other forms of money, whether fiat currency or otherwise (your inferred counterargument) but tangible things people need and want either as goods or services. Regardless of what you think about fiat currency, anyone can obtain much better value for it buying practically anything versus the astronomically inflated market price you believe should exist for gold.

    Due to what you write, I understand why gold sells for above its historical relative value. There is a higher risk premium. At some point, I also believe it will be more overpriced. But that's completely different than what you are claiming or at least implying.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,016 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WCC said:

    I also find your gold claim to be completely unsubstantiated. If the price was based upon reason, why should it be worth so much more when it's already so historically overpriced? Are you actually trying to claim it isn't?

    Then why have numerous bullion banks (JPM on more than one occasion) been charged by the Dept. of Justice and paid hundreds of millions in fines for manipulating the price of precious metals in the futures market?

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021 5:55PM

    @derryb said:

    @cohodk said:

    @derryb said:

    I'm saying there is no proof that bitcoin is being illegally manipulated. There are mountains of DOJ fines to prove that precious metals futures markets have been manipulated.

    Motivation to influence price is present in all markets and not all such influence is illegal. Do not confuse illegal price manipulation (such as the admitted behavior of DOJ charged COMEX bullion bankers) with "influence" (such as advertising, corporate press releases and yes, even the bid and sell price offered by investors) that has the intent to change market price movement, but within the confines of trading laws and regulation.

    So because there are no laws or regulation of trading bitcoin, there can be no "illegal" manipulation. And what may be perceived as manipulation is only "influence" because there are no laws or regulation? And those that influence are not corrupt? Can you tell me in what countries do the largest bitcoin miners operate?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,016 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021 6:45PM

    There are laws and regulations for the trading of bitcoin. I have already explained the difference between illegal manipulation and legal influence. As always with you, trying to twist what I said does not change what I said. If what I said was not clear to you read it until it gets through.

    The SEC has indicated that it considers cryptocurrencies to be securities, and applies securities laws to digital wallets. Cryptocurrency exchanges fall under the Bank Secrecy Act and are therefore licensed and regulated by FINCIN. The CFTC recently filed charges against a crypto trading platform.

    However, since cryptos are fairly new the Justice Department continues to coordinate with the SEC, CFTC, and other agencies over future cryptocurrency regulations.

    "Are those that influence corrupt?" Only when they break the law with their influence. Ford just told me on the TV that they make the best trucks. Legal or illegal market influence? I drove down the price of a stock today because I bid less than the ask. Legal or illegal market influence?

    Bitcoin mining? try google, best you learn how to find some of your answers.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,263 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Regardless of what you think about fiat currency, anyone can obtain much better value for it buying practically anything versus the astronomically inflated market price you believe should exist for gold.

    That price of gold is apparently astronomically inflated not because gold has become more valuable, but because they've created a few extra $Trillions out of thin air (and also to pay commissions to the NY Fed) to compete for whatever goods or services they decide to compete for. Congress is basically doing whatever they want at this point. Whatever they want.

    I understand why gold sells for above its historical relative value. There is a higher risk premium. At some point, I also believe it will be more overpriced.

    A high risk premium? Say what? You don't think that market sentiments combined with supply & demand factors have as much to do with gold pricing as a risk premium? What risks would they be considering that wouldn't be included by market sentiments and supply & demand?

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I hear you derryb and appreciate your responses. I ask questions to stimulate thinking. Sometimes the answer is irrelevant, but what can be most helpful is the character of the response itself. Understanding the thought processes that investors go through prior to, during and after making an investment decision can enhance ones own investment prowess. Ive watched 1000s of investors make mistakes--ive even made a few myself (I know thats hard to believe ;) ).

    Many times though what you write is simply not true and that misinformation can be easily dismissed. However, the accumulation of misinformation can influence behavior and rational thought processes. This is much more difficult to overcome, especially at the personal level due to emotions--greed, fear, pride. We form opinions, usually very strong opinions, based on this misinformation. And when the behavior of a group becomes influenced the results can be downright devastating. Fortunately we have many examples of this investment behavior over the last 2 decades. Why not learn and understand that behavior?

    We all come to this website for camaraderie and information, both of which come in many forms.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • Just buy BTG, Bitcoin gold tokens. Then everything is covered

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,016 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1980: The last time the COMEX admitted to their paper metal fractional scam.

    "There are contracts outstanding requiring delivery of about 100 million ounces of silver in March, he said, and only 77 million ounces in Comex's warehouses. Of that 77 million, only 20 to 22 million ounces is deliverable."

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • AzurescensAzurescens Posts: 2,665 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    Regardless of what you think about fiat currency, anyone can obtain much better value for it buying practically anything versus the astronomically inflated market price you believe should exist for gold.

    That price of gold is apparently astronomically inflated not because gold has become more valuable, but because they've created a few extra $Trillions out of thin air (and also to pay commissions to the NY Fed) to compete for whatever goods or services they decide to compete for. Congress is basically doing whatever they want at this point. Whatever they want.

    I understand why gold sells for above its historical relative value. There is a higher risk premium. At some point, I also believe it will be more overpriced.

    A high risk premium? Say what? You don't think that market sentiments combined with supply & demand factors have as much to do with gold pricing as a risk premium? What risks would they be considering that wouldn't be included by market sentiments and supply & demand?

    He's not a legitimate user with genuine opinions. The goal is to wear you down. Indeed, the point of the original post was to cause division. Trolls like him do it in political subs; pose two divisive things, make everyone fight. It's such a classic bitcoin/metals trolling technique you see everywhere and it is sick. Seeing it here is just depressing. No wonder this place is dead.

  • thefinnthefinn Posts: 2,652 ✭✭✭✭✭

    BITCOIN. Pump & Dump coming to a screen near you. You can only take a profit when you sell it.

    thefinn
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,263 ✭✭✭✭✭

    He's not a legitimate user with genuine opinions. The goal is to wear you down. Indeed, the point of the original post was to cause division.

    Maybe so. I note that he hasn't responded to my questions. If he thinks gold is overpriced, he must think that the dollar is underpriced. That being the case, he should be holding dollars or buying bonds if he really wants to walk the walk. My sense is that he doesn't own much gold, and that he wishes he did.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • metalmeistermetalmeister Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭✭✭

    China controls around 2/3rds of all Bitcoin. Draw your own conclusions.

    email: [email protected]

    100% Positive BST transactions
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,016 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2021 7:24PM

    @metalmeister said:
    China controls around 2/3rds of all Bitcoin. Draw your own conclusions.

    I don't care who else owns it.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:
    Gold or bitcoin?

    Please discuss.

    Probably neither of those. Stock, bond, and currency markets are FAR more manipulated and FAR more corrupt.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
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