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My Oldest Western-Style Dated Coin, 1543 Charles V Besançon (Carolus?)

So, I won this silver coin over the weekend on eBay. I just loved the fact that it had a good, strong date, nice color, I think it could probably pass for Mint State although certified AU58 PCGS. What (little) I know about it is that it was struck in eastern France in the city-state of Besançon when it was part of the great Holy Roman Empire. It depicts King Charles V of Spain on the obverse (note some neat doubling on his profile). The Latin legends are CAROLUS V IMPERATOR / MONE CIVI BISVNTINE, date 1543 above city arms. I think it's curious that there is not a denomination other than "money"--what was this worth? A pound, a livre, a thaler, a pig? Were there other smaller/larger denominations?

I know that there are much earlier coins (mid-late 14th century) with what I call Western-style numerals (they're just not Arabic numerals, now, are they?) and there is a reference book to those ... At any rate, it's a pretty coin, clearly hammered, with a cool history, now the oldest coin in what I consider my "own" collection (as opposed to dealer inventory) by about 250 years, and probably one I will be loath to part with.

I'll turn the discussion over to people like my friend @Tibor who are actually knowledgeable in this area. I am not.

And thus endeth my tale.

Kind regards,

George

VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.

Comments

  • PBRatPBRat Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭

    Very nice.

    Here's one from a few years later, 1550, with the date in the legend instead of above the shield.

  • TiborTibor Posts: 3,199 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2021 6:22AM

    This is a very nice coin. The AU grade designation might come from the weak strike that is
    seen at 7:00 on both sides. On the older coins, a weak strike is sometimes mistaken for
    wear. The mint master was held responsible for the the weight and purity of the coin, not
    for strike. Is the weight of the coin on the slab? if it is not in a slab you can weigh it. Thalers
    and English crowns weigh 25+ grams. This looks to weigh approximately 3 grams, give or take.
    What it bought and how long it took to earn it, I'm not sure. As I stated earlier, it is a nice piece
    and will look good in your collection.

  • WillieBoyd2WillieBoyd2 Posts: 5,034 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2021 6:18AM

    Another Charles V from Besancon dated one year earlier:

    image
    City of Besançon silver Carolus 1542
    Silver, 19 mm, 1.44 gm
    Obverse: Crowned bust of Charles V facing left / CAROLVS V IMPERATOR
    Reverse: Arms of the city / MONE CIVI BISVNTINE 1542
    Catalog: Roberts 7005 (James N. Roberts, The Silver Coins of Medieval France, 1996)

    Charles V, as King of Spain, was reported given a golden falcon by the Knights of St. John in return for the island of Malta.

    Mexico has honored him by naming a candy bar after him, the "Carlos Quinto".

    Besançon is a city currently part of France. It has been passed around between German states, Spain, and France. It was part of the Holy Roman Empire since 1034 and was designated the Free Imperial City of Besançon in 1184. The city struck coins between 1526 and 1673.

    I just had to have a coin with Charles V on it after reading Dashiell Hammett's book The Maltese Falcon and now I do.

    :)

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  • Bob13Bob13 Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice coin! I was tracking that one and strongly considered a bid. There are a lot of these coins, even certified, but I like that the OP's has some toning.

    Any one have insight into why so many of these survived? A hoard?

    My current "Box of 20"

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So, I looked up the pop report at PCGS. Three in 50, one each in 55, 58 (mine I assume), 62. That doesn't look like "so many" to me. Of course I understand there would be raw ones and NGC ones, etc., so just sayin'. Also, NGC's information includes an attribution (for the series of MB# 6). Anyone have any idea what that is? And I thankee one and all.

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • PBRatPBRat Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭

    Also, NGC's information includes an attribution (for the series of MB# 6). Anyone have any idea what that is?

    The information on MB numbers can be found in the 4th reply from the bottom of https://en.numista.com/forum/topic52458.html

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PBRat said:
    Also, NGC's information includes an attribution (for the series of MB# 6). Anyone have any idea what that is?

    The information on MB numbers can be found in the 4th reply from the bottom of https://en.numista.com/forum/topic52458.html

    Very kind, thank you!

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • Bob13Bob13 Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2021 1:01PM

    @giorgio11 - Maybe I exaggerated a little by saying there are "a lot" of these coins. Wasn't necessarily meaning this particular date, but there are a fair number of 1 Carolus and 1/2 Carolus available given that these are nearly 500 year old coins! Maybe they just made a ton of them over the years.

    https://www.pcgs.com/pop/detail/besancon/1680/2611

    My current "Box of 20"

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Bob13 no problem at all, just trying to learn about them. So there are 1/2 Carolus as well, that's news to me too. It's all good.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
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