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Grading Opinion: Does a paperclip impression preclude Gem CU in your book?

synchrsynchr Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭
edited March 20, 2021 9:32AM in U.S. & World Currency Forum

I bought a note that was TPG'd as Gem CU with PQ paper.
Upon receiving it I saw a very distinct paper clip impression on the RHS.

How do you grade your notes; does that paperclip impression automatically drop the best grade possible to an AU
or do Gem CU note transcend that and an impression without any rust doesn't affect the grade?

Thank you for your opinion

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    Steve_in_TampaSteve_in_Tampa Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2021 11:30AM

    I’m going to reserve my opinion until I’m able to see photos. But basically, it should be treated as a case by case decision. Some may be more distracting than others.

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    Serial_no_8Serial_no_8 Posts: 423 ✭✭✭

    I think it would affect the grade. If it is an impression (the paper has been altered) & it should lose its "Q" (no longer "original" as it left the printers). At least that's what I think would happen here, in Canada, where grading is somewhat more conservative.

    How many points it would drop? That would definitely be on a "case-by-case" basis. But I would not expect a "Gem 66/65" would need to be reduced all the way down to AU55 to 58 but rather UNC62 or 63. Would it not be a few points? Our guy from BCS has given out plenty of "UNC60's" which I suspect means some type of very light handling (or enough production flaws (but not so much as to be AU 58).

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    goldengolden Posts: 9,063 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Always.

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    luckybucksluckybucks Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭

    I am of the opinion that yes, a paperclip will drop a gem note, but to 63 or 64 if well centered, and 61 to 63 for less than perfect centering (poor centering would be the 61).

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    synchrsynchr Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭

    Agreed, photos needed

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    synchrsynchr Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2021 9:18AM

    I requested to return it to Heritage as I honestly disagree with the grade,
    they refused, stating TPG's are not permitted returns

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    Steve_in_TampaSteve_in_Tampa Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Without the side lighting, it’s not nearly as noticeable.

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    synchrsynchr Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2021 9:57AM

    In person, I clearly saw it in seconds,
    but I must agree that the Heritage photos completely hide the defect.
    Since you found the auction then you know I pay a premium for notes I really want - I'd much rather have the spot filled once and enjoy it but this really does not cut it.

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    Serial_no_8Serial_no_8 Posts: 423 ✭✭✭

    I guess it just goes to show that scans are very poor at showing the note's true condition (photos & being there to inspect in person- necessary). I got a PMG "UNC63 EPQ" - the scan did not show all the imperfections. When it showed up I was aghast at it true condition- many minor wrinkles that would place it more around AU 50 ballpark & I wanted to return it -but just sucked it up. It's always so very disappointing when. note is over graded by any TPG. I always distrust scans that have to bright contrast these days & just pass on them.

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    goldengolden Posts: 9,063 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No way ,no how is that a 66 note!

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    synchrsynchr Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭

    I feel burned by HA.

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    tomtomtomtomtomtomtomtom Posts: 535 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2021 8:48PM

    I don't think that Heritage is the issue here. They have a policy that 3rd party graded notes are not returnable..It's PMG that is the issue. I would check out the PMG guarantee for being over graded.

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    Serial_no_8Serial_no_8 Posts: 423 ✭✭✭

    I only bought once from HA & it was more "pain" then "gain" (other than the little collector book they inserted in my package). I braced myself for the buyer's premium, but then it just never stopped (charged for using a credit card, charged $30 USD for Fedex, charged for insurance, charged by Fedex for paying duties again at the US border, etc). Another charge to get my note from Customs. I think my winning bid was about 66% of the actual cost & by the time I got my notes I knew they would easily be my most expensive acquisition. It's just almost impossible to participate with HA items from outside the US & not feel hit up multiple times. Then they don't stop with mail ads in attempts to lure me to buy or consign, plus surveys about my experience, etc.

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    Cody71086Cody71086 Posts: 58 ✭✭

    I wouldn't AU for that, but it is definitely not a 66. If that is the only issue I'd call it a 63.

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    synchrsynchr Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2021 4:35PM

    Politely disagree.
    Doesn't Heritage receive every single note prior to auction for their inspection and subsequent approval/dosapproval prior to Heritage listing it on their auction site?
    Secondly, doesn't Heritage provide and produce photos with descriptive text representing these items for sale on their auction site?
    Sure seems Heritage is representing these items as sales items and not just providing a venue (ala ebay)

    @tomtomtomtom said:
    I don't think that Heritage is the issue here. They have a policy that 3rd party graded notes are not returnable..It's PMG that is the issue. I would check out the PMG guarantee for being over graded

    .
    .
    .
    You are correct. I called Heritage, stated the above facts and was told irrefutably that Heritage has a "No Returns" policy on TPG notes.
    It seems that Ebay has better buyer protection than Heritage....

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    tomtomtomtomtomtomtomtom Posts: 535 ✭✭✭✭

    HA should have worked with you especially with a good customer that you are. I would be POd also if I received the note above but HA is not in the business of grading notes. They present them as graded. How many times have we seen notes re-appear after "fixing" in a new holder...the catalogers don't mention that either. I also agree that the cataloger should have picked up the paper clip if it is that obvious in person....but what would he say..."It's a 66 but it's misgraded"? I still believe that your issue is with PMG since they are the ones who screwed up the grade in the first place and that's the reason that they have guarantees.

    @synchr said:
    Politely disagree.
    Doesn't Heritage receive every single note prior to auction for their inspection and subsequent approval/dosapproval prior to Heritage listing it on their auction site?
    Secondly, doesn't Heritage provide and produce photos with descriptive text representing these items for sale on their auction site?
    Sure seems Heritage is representing these items as sales items and not just providing a venue (ala ebay)

    @tomtomtomtom said:
    I don't think that Heritage is the issue here. They have a policy that 3rd party graded notes are not returnable..It's PMG that is the issue. I would check out the PMG guarantee for being over graded

    .
    .
    .
    You are correct. I called Heritage, stated the above facts and was told irrefutably that Heritage has a "No Returns" policy on TPG notes.
    It seems that Ebay has better buyer protection than Heritage....

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    synchrsynchr Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2021 5:10AM

    Thank you, agreed; I could deal with PMG or just dump the note on the market.

    Now that I know the rules of the Heritage Auctions "slider game" I am preparing a submission to HA of some real runts of TPG notes. If HA is into selling paper clip notes or less as Gem CU, well let's give them what they desire!

    This HA "No returns" rule benefits sellers, not buyers and prior to this I would have felt bad trying to pass my lesser notes off to someone in person. Now that HA has shown me the way, I can comply accordingly and still dump these dogs from my collection.

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My opinion: If a "gem" note has a paper clip impression it is overgraded.

    All glory is fleeting.
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