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Most Deserving Players Not in the HOF; Part 152

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  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    MIke Schmidt called Allen "an amazing mentor" who was wrongly labeled a "bad teammate" and "troublemaker."

    "Dick was a sensitive Black man who refused to be treated as a second-class citizen," Schmidt said in a speech. "He played in front of home fans that were products of that racist era (with) racist teammates and different rules for whites and Blacks. Fans threw stuff at him and thus Dick wore a batting helmet throughout the whole game. They yelled degrading racial slurs. They dumped trash in his front yard at his home. In general, he was tormented and it came from all directions. And Dick rebelled."

    Allen answered in his own way, sometimes scratching out "Boo" or "No" with his cleats in the dirt around the bases.

    Schmidt pointed out Allen didn't have a negative reputation playing for the St. Louis Cardinals, Los Angeles Dodgers and Chicago White Sox. He also campaigned for Allen's induction into the Hall of Fame.

    "My friends, these (negative) labels have kept Dick Allen out of the Hall of Fame," Schmidt said. "Imagine what Dick could've accomplished as a player in another era, on another team, left alone to hone his skills, to be confident, to come to the ballpark every day and just play baseball."

  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,328 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:

    Better player. Griffey could actually play defense, Allen couldn't.

    Also, since I haven't said it recently, Dick Allen absolutely belongs in the HOF.

    OK, we agree that Allen was the better hitter, so any disagreement we have is going to be about the value of their defense, and whether it makes up the gap in their hitting. And that in turn is going to come down to what period of time we're using as a reference. For one year, 1972, Allen was so much better at the plate than Griffey ever was that I don't care how good Griffey was in the outfield, he did not make up that gap. Not possible playing the outfield. The offensive gap actually grows when you look at their top 2 or 3 years; even less possible for Griffey to catch Allen.

    After three years, though, it gets muddy. James doesn't have Griffey catching Allen in career value until 10-12 years have passed, but James' method surely gives Allen more credit for playing third base poorly than you would, and probably a little more than I would. But somewhere between 4 and 12 years Griffey does catch Allen. How many years does "better than" cover?

    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • emaremar Posts: 697 ✭✭✭✭

    By age twenty, he [Allen] was ready for AAA baseball, the final minor league stop before the majors. Philadelphia had a new AAA affiliate in 1963, as baseball returned to Little Rock after a year’s absence following the collapse of the Southern Association. The Arkansas Travelers were a new member of the International League and now were classified AAA.
    Little Rock held an infamous place in history because of the 1957 desegregation of Little Rock Central High School. Those events concerned Allen, who had never been to the South. He asked Phillies officials not to send him to Arkansas to play, to no avail. In later years, Allen faulted the organization for the little support it provided him in his year in Little Rock.
    ~encyclopediaofarkansas.net

    Allen received 14 votes on the '83 ballot. FOURTEEN. pathetic.
    For 50 years, Allen's reputation is a trouble maker, an instigator, misunderstood.
    Allen was ahead of his time. He refused to accept the status quo; unafraid to go against the grain.

    Golden Days, do the right thing already. It's a GD shame Dick isn't with us to enjoy.

    RIP MR. ALLEN
    never saw you play but I'm a big fan

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,793 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @emar said:
    By age twenty, he [Allen] was ready for AAA baseball, the final minor league stop before the majors. Philadelphia had a new AAA affiliate in 1963, as baseball returned to Little Rock after a year’s absence following the collapse of the Southern Association. The Arkansas Travelers were a new member of the International League and now were classified AAA.
    Little Rock held an infamous place in history because of the 1957 desegregation of Little Rock Central High School. Those events concerned Allen, who had never been to the South. He asked Phillies officials not to send him to Arkansas to play, to no avail. In later years, Allen faulted the organization for the little support it provided him in his year in Little Rock.
    ~encyclopediaofarkansas.net

    Allen received 14 votes on the '83 ballot. FOURTEEN. pathetic.
    For 50 years, Allen's reputation is a trouble maker, an instigator, misunderstood.
    Allen was ahead of his time. He refused to accept the status quo; unafraid to go against the grain.

    Golden Days, do the right thing already. It's a GD shame Dick isn't with us to enjoy.

    RIP MR. ALLEN
    never saw you play but I'm a big fan

    BUY THIS BOOK! Cult Baseball : The Greats, the Flakes, the Weird and the Wonderful Danny Peary.

    One of the best baseball stories ever regarding Dick Allen, written by a guy who played with him......Jim Kaat.

    Plus many other fantastic stories.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,970 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Tony Oliva and Richie (Dick) Allen for sure.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • Mickey71Mickey71 Posts: 4,252 ✭✭✭✭

    Allen played under terrible conditions. It's too bad. He obviously was a terrific player. The racist stuff is so sad in sports. The game is played wonderfully by people of all colors. Such a shame. RIP Mr. Allen.

  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,061 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dallasactuary said:

    @Tabe said:

    Better player. Griffey could actually play defense, Allen couldn't.

    Also, since I haven't said it recently, Dick Allen absolutely belongs in the HOF.

    OK, we agree that Allen was the better hitter, so any disagreement we have is going to be about the value of their defense, and whether it makes up the gap in their hitting. And that in turn is going to come down to what period of time we're using as a reference. For one year, 1972, Allen was so much better at the plate than Griffey ever was that I don't care how good Griffey was in the outfield, he did not make up that gap. Not possible playing the outfield. The offensive gap actually grows when you look at their top 2 or 3 years; even less possible for Griffey to catch Allen.

    After three years, though, it gets muddy. James doesn't have Griffey catching Allen in career value until 10-12 years have passed, but James' method surely gives Allen more credit for playing third base poorly than you would, and probably a little more than I would. But somewhere between 4 and 12 years Griffey does catch Allen. How many years does "better than" cover?

    Hard to say an exact number. I will say this, however: WAR puts Griffey's top 2 years ahead of Dick Allen's best and his 3rd-best tied with Allen's best.

  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,328 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, but WAR sucks, as I've often said.

    Win Shares
    Allen: 41, 40, 35, 33, 32, 29, 29, 23, 22, 19
    Griffey: 36, 31, 30, 29, 29, 28, 25, 24, 24, 20

    WPA (where Allen beats Griffey for their careers, despite his shorter career):
    Allen: 7.3, 6.8, 6.6, 5.6, 4.8, 4.4. 3.7, 3.3, 2.8, 2.1
    Griffey: 4.7, 4.5, 4.1, 3.8, 3.7, 3.4, 3.3, 3.1, 3.0, 2.6

    Runs Created (normalized)
    Allen 154, 145, 136, 129, 120, 120, 117, 104, 102, 92
    Griffey 143, 142, 130, 123, 122, 120, 111, 108, 104, 100

    "Clutch" stats (OPS in high and low leverage at bats)
    Allen: High - .912, Low - .869
    Griffey: High - .870, Low - .912

    I included the "clutch" stats because they go a long way towards explaining why Allen beats Griffey in Win Shares, and handily in WPA. WAR doesn't include any "clutch", or situational, factor. Allen got his hits when they mattered to a much greater degree than Griffey did.

    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Stipulating for the moment that you're right about Griffey, if he retires after his first year in Cincinnati, where does he rank on the all-time list of centerfielders?

  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,328 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @daltex said:
    Stipulating for the moment that you're right about Griffey, if he retires after his first year in Cincinnati, where does he rank on the all-time list of centerfielders?

    If you'll allow me the luxury of avoiding the work required to pinpoint their positions precisely, I think Griffey and Allen both rank somewhere in the second 5 at their positions.

    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dallasactuary said:

    @daltex said:
    Stipulating for the moment that you're right about Griffey, if he retires after his first year in Cincinnati, where does he rank on the all-time list of centerfielders?

    If you'll allow me the luxury of avoiding the work required to pinpoint their positions precisely, I think Griffey and Allen both rank somewhere in the second 5 at their positions.

    That's a very reasonable approach. It's far easier to determine that one believes that Willie Mays is the number one CF than that Denard Span is number 100. Safer to say that Span is likely between 50 and 150. I mean even if you have a very definite opinion as to whether Span is better or worse than Vernon Wells you're likely not going to have one about Span and Stan Javier. More likely you'll think all three were about the same.

    FWIW, Span is exactly 100 on the JAWS list.

    To set up a dartboard, the second five CFs according to JAWS is (in order)

    Griffey
    DiMaggio
    Snider
    Beltran
    Lofton

    and the second five 3Bs are

    Chipper Jones
    Santo
    Robinson
    Molitor
    Rolen

    Allen is 17th.

    Now I'm not arguing for or against any player to be in those groups and I'm certainly not arguing for those exact rankings, just saying that if you think a player is in the second five, this is a rough approximation of the value you're saying he provided. You wouldn't put Wade Boggs or Darrell Evans at this level, for example.

  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,328 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As you know, I have abandoned WAR, and its offspring JAWS, but I can live with the names on those lists. Interestingly, but not really importantly, I was thinking of first basemen not third basemen with regard to Allen (who played more 1B than 3B so I don't know why JAWS ranks him at 3B). But I think he fits comfortably in the second 5 at either position.

    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dallasactuary said:
    As you know, I have abandoned WAR, and its offspring JAWS, but I can live with the names on those lists. Interestingly, but not really importantly, I was thinking of first basemen not third basemen with regard to Allen (who played more 1B than 3B so I don't know why JAWS ranks him at 3B). But I think he fits comfortably in the second 5 at either position.

    I've noticed that. I think that despite the difference in innings, Allen is classed as a third baseman because his defensive difference from average (Rtot) is larger at 3rd.

    For the sake of completeness, the corresponding list for 1B is:

    Bagwell
    Brouthers
    Mize
    Thomas
    Thome

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,104 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Rocky Colavito needs to be in the HOF. No discussion and no excuses... he should be there.

    Others worthy are

    Gil Hodges... We have debated back and forth here several times so there is no point in furthering the arguments

    Frank Howard... statistics do not capture the distance of his legendary homeruns

    I would not rule out Ken Boyer or Joe Adcock. Adcock seems to be overshadowed by others... including those on his team.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • BrickBrick Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I remember when you could not say Adcock on this forum.

    Collecting 1960 Topps Baseball in PSA 8
    http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/

    Ralph

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,793 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:
    Rocky Colavito needs to be in the HOF. No discussion and no excuses... he should be there.

    Rocky was great! Career ended rather soon, so I see why he has been overlooked,
    >

    Others worthy are

    Gil Hodges... We have debated back and forth here several times so there is no point in furthering the arguments

    Couldn't agree more, he's my #1 guy I would put in.
    >

    Frank Howard... statistics do not capture the distance of his legendary homeruns

    Similar to Colavito, somewhat of a short career. Great hitter. Great nick name "The Capital Punisher"!
    >

    I would not rule out Ken Boyer or Joe Adcock. Adcock seems to be overshadowed by others... including those on his team.

    Continuing the trend you pick a couple of more guys who didn't play enough. Boyer was a great fielder and hitter with a very nice 10 year run and Adcock was a favorite of mine, but he was not really a full time player for much of his career.

    Other than Boyer, who was an MVP, (Mays deserved it that year imo) none of these guys led the league in very many categories either

    I do agree with what I think your point might be. These guys were better than a LOT of guys who managed to play for 20 years and weren't as "good". Baines is going to be the first guy brought up.

    I would rate Oliva with "your" guys, he was more dominant with 3 batting titles, but his career was even shorter.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    I do agree with what I think your point might be. These guys were better than a LOT of guys who managed to play for 20 years and weren't as "good". Baines is going to be the first guy brought up.

    Again I make two points. Better than Harold Baines is not and never has been the qualification for Hall of Fame. Hopefully it never will be. There are mistakes in there, and we have to live with it because admitting everyone who is better than those mistakes would both inevitably admit players who were mistakes by that weakened standard and swell the hall. Example, if we're using the "better than Baines" standard, which of the following are you confident in leaving out: Paul O'Neill, Brian Jordan, Von Hayes, Sixto Lezcano, or Terry Puhl? For that matter, can you be confident whether or not Jesse Barfield or Jay Buhner is now "deserving".

    Second: the Baines, Morris, Lee Smith inductions didn't worsen the standards. The Frisch Veterans committees of the early 1970s chose so poorly that that would nearly be impossible. None of the players mentioned in this thread are beyond the "standards" of those committees.

    Third (I suppose) is that in general the writers have gotten it right, if perhaps too strict. Catfish Hunter is perhaps the only howler admitted by the writers while there are dozens admitted by the various committees with Baines only sticking out as particularly egregious because of the recency bias.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,104 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Dick Allen should be in the HOF as well

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,793 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @daltex said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    I do agree with what I think your point might be. These guys were better than a LOT of guys who managed to play for 20 years and weren't as "good". Baines is going to be the first guy brought up.

    Again I make two points. Better than Harold Baines is not and never has been the qualification for Hall of Fame. Hopefully it never will be. There are mistakes in there, and we have to live with it because admitting everyone who is better than those mistakes would both inevitably admit players who were mistakes by that weakened standard and swell the hall. Example, if we're using the "better than Baines" standard, which of the following are you confident in leaving out: Paul O'Neill, Brian Jordan, Von Hayes, Sixto Lezcano, or Terry Puhl? For that matter, can you be confident whether or not Jesse Barfield or Jay Buhner is now "deserving".

    Second: the Baines, Morris, Lee Smith inductions didn't worsen the standards. The Frisch Veterans committees of the early 1970s chose so poorly that that would nearly be impossible. None of the players mentioned in this thread are beyond the "standards" of those committees.

    Third (I suppose) is that in general the writers have gotten it right, if perhaps too strict. Catfish Hunter is perhaps the only howler admitted by the writers while there are dozens admitted by the various committees with Baines only sticking out as particularly egregious because of the recency bias.

    Most of the guys mentioned as being deserving have a couple things in common. A great 10 years of very good play and not much else. Oliva had eight great years.

    Secondly none of these guys, outside of Oliva, had many league leading totals in anything. Howard won a couple of HR titles and Boyer won an MVP.

    Baines' career was weird. He was a leader once in SLG and was a very good hitter for about 10 years and good for another 10. The only thing that separates him from the others is his extra 5 (or so) years of service. I saw him beat the Twins on many occasions and had great respect for him as a player, never thought he was anywhere near a HOFer

    One shouldn't ignore all those years. The question is where do you put the "cut off"? Looks to me like a guy needs about 20 years in the big leagues to be a sure thing, or a lot of dominance, like Kiner and Koufax. Hunter was on a lot of championship teams and we all see how people get convinced single players get (too much) credit for team accomplishments.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2021 7:24PM

    I saw Baines play a lot. Never once did I think HOFer. With Morris, Trammell, Mattingly, Murphy , Clark Whitaker, Hunter, Parker and a few others I always thought maybe I was looking at one.

    m

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,793 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Justacommeman said:
    I saw Baines play a lot. Never once did I think HOFer. With Morris, Trammell, Mattingly, Murphy , Clark Whitaker, Hunter, Parker and a few others I always thought maybe I was looking at one.

    m

    Baines used to destroy Twins pitching..................HOF, no.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
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