check out this sick lay down
galaxy27
Posts: 7,753 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
happened earlier this month. this is how you piece a story together and save yourself 90k when you've flopped second nuts. certainly helped when Hellmuth opened his trap, but very impressive by this Polk dude nonetheless
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcHra9RMw0Ayou'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
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That was intense, two thumbs way up! 🖒🖒
galaxy- what did hellmuth say? I don't have sound.
If it was me I probably would have thought Phil flopped either two pair or had
something like jack, ace and was trying to end it in case his opponent was on a straight draw.
But no way would I fold!
Gets my vote for greatest fold ever.
A big difference between winning and losing poker players is avoiding coolers.
That was certainly a cooler hand and Polk wisely avoided it.
Frankly, it was a terrible bet by Phil Hellmuth for a number of reasons.
I've watched this at least 10 times. Hellmuths big mouth may have helped induced this lay down. His set comment was dumb. Gabe Kaplan was great
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Wasn't that bad as there was two spades on the flop. Only hand that could beat him was someone drawing out a flush or the board pairing for a FH if Polk had a set. It was just a sick lay down. That all in would have induced a call 99% of the time
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It’s a good lay down but with that flop thinking a guy might have a > @stevek said:
Agreed.
just watched it again and this is my interpretation. from the moment Hellmuth shoved, Polk wasn't buying what Phil was trying to sell. watch it again -- Polk is shaking his head repeatedly. translation: highly unlikely that is he moving in with a set. would he really risk driving everyone out of the hand, or instead distribute rope until the texture of the board gives him pause? Polk probably placed 5-10% on a set, with 90-95% on either a high-equity draw or a hand that leaves him all but dead.........Q-10. so then the chatter commenced. Polk wanted to lower the 5-10% as much as he possibly could -- and he did so by making an attempt to glean information from Hellmuth's mouth. and right on cue, Hellmuth started talking and it ultimately sealed his fate. watch again. Hellmuth says, "I could easily have....." Polk interjects, "What could you easily have?" then Phil started rattling off hands. a set. blockers (pair of tens). A-10 of spades. Polk wasn't for one second going to buy in to a stab at reverse psychology, so he eliminated every hand that Hellmuth mentioned. all that was left was a hand would result in him paying Hellmuth off to the tune of another 90k, therefore he folded.
ultra-impressive, next-level thinking.................but even more impressive was the fact that he was able to dig that deep on national television with three knuckleheads on the other end of the table mouthing off and making side bets
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
Well it didn't induce a call. Polk folded. Frankly it wasn't that sick of a lay down based on the amount of money Hellmuth bet, which of course was the only reason Polk folded.
Polk is a far better cash game player than Hellmuth. No sense Polk taking a chance of getting coolered when he can get Hellmuth's money later in a better situation.
Hellmuth had position on Polk, so actually the smartest play with a possible nut hand would have been for Hellmuth to just call Polk's 7k bet, hope that the turn and river are bricks, let Polk continue to donk, and then catch Polk with a possible all-in bet from him, and felt him.
Points understood, but in my opinion, the second Hellmuth shoved, Polk made the decision to fold. Polk just postured for the cameras as is often seen on these televised poker games.
Hellmuth opening his mouth had nothing to do with it.
That all in induces an instant call 99% of the time with second nuts. Insane lay down under the lights. That's why most pros agree this is one of the greatest lay downs ever.
Listen to Gabe Kaplan.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Nope, not 99% considering the bet size from Hellmuth in that stage of the hand.
Perhaps the same bet after the river it could be 99% if a player is pot committed. But Polk wasn't anywhere close to pot committed when Hellmuth made his bet.
In reality, considering all the circumstances, the only cards Hellmuth could have had was Q,10, off suit. Hellmuth would have called with Q,10 of spades, a possible straight flush draw.
I saw on live at the bike, Garrett Adelstein make a similar laydown, and that was after the river. That was a far, FAR, tougher laydown than this.
Completely agree with ya.
Wasn't one of those idiots Shawn Sheikhan who is a well known loudmouth and agitator at a poker table.
Steve........ c'mon.
Saying Polk folded based simply on the amount of money Hellmuth bet is wrong.
The reason he folded was the reason pro's always fold, he ultimately thought he was behind,
if he thought he was ahead he would have called. If he was scared of the size of the bet he
wouldn't have a seat at that game.
Steve you should just quit now. If you figured out the only hand Hellmuth could have had was Q, 10 off suit
then you would have a seat at that table.
Isn't Hellmuth's hand virtually impossible to beat? Why not make a sizeable bet, but not go all in, to increase the pot size?
This is why I don’t believe it was such a huge deal to fold. I’m not saying it’s an easy lay down but when a guy puts you all in and you dont have the nuts it’s not all that crazy to get out. Q/10 starting hand is pretty solid. It’s not like it was a nut hand behind 9/4 hole cards or something.
The size of Hellmuth's bet told Polk that he was drawing dead. Polk stated that during the hand before he folded.
Based on the size of the bet and knowing Hellmuth's style of play, Polk has played with Hellmuth a number of times, and had of course seen Hellmuth play on many TV shows...Q,10 os was the only logical cards Hellmuth could have based on the size of the bet.
Hellmuth in position, should have allowed Polk to donk more chips after the turn. I think Polk would have bet around 15k maybe 20k after the turn if no spade hits or the board doesn't pair. Hellmuth of course calls. So ya get get Polk more pot committed, then perhaps Hellmuth should make a sizable bet after the river depending on what two cards fall.
If you've seen Polk play, you'd know he loves to bluff and bluff big. I'm sure Hellmuth knows that as well. The much more interesting scenario would have been if a spade hit on the turn, and Polk goes all-in representing a flush.
If one spade hits, and Polk goes all-in, I think Hellmuth calls, especially since Hellmuth has a blocker. If two spades hit, and Polk goes all-in, wow, that's a brutal decision for Hellmuth with a queen high flush.
Oh well, in any event, Hellmuth made the wrong play, and Polk the right one.
@LarkinCollector asked me to post this:
"Throwing down a flopped straight is nearly impossible in that situation. He only could have done it after Phil opened his mouth. Since you can't say what hand you actually have, it eliminated trips from the possibilities and became a quite reasonable fold."
"D*ck moves by all on the side bets."
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
This was the hand mentioned, eerily similar to the OP video...and look who's narrating it. LOL
I also agree with Polk on this one, he would have called and taken the loss, considering Andy's final bet amount and being pot committed.
But Adelstein plays with Andy a lot, and must of had a read that Andy was strong, IE nuts strong...and an amazing read it was. One of the most remarkable laydowns I've ever seen.
I also think that Phil over thought the all in assuming that Polk would snap call him by reputation. Polk is probably the biggest "calling stations" in the poker world. Polk figures that the competition at his level will alway have a range of hands including bluffs. Watch some of Polk's Youtube videos where he criticizes players for making huge folds. He terrorizes them. That's his thing which makes it all the more ironic and even more delicious that it happened to Phil.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Very nice dissertation Mark 👍
Who is the Asian woman?
Why does the commentator have to drone on and on and on? Worse than watching baseball ;-)
Polk isn't associated with that poker broadcast "Live at the Bike"
Polk has his own Youtube channel and he picks various poker hands like this one and comments on them. Him droning on and on is his analysis style - LOL
Polk is actually an excellent poker player. He recently kicked Daniel Negreanu's keister in a well publicized heads up match of 25,000 hands.
Polk actually quit playing poker for a few years. Something Mark alluded to, likely flaws in his game that better players picked up on. In my opinion is he probably was getting crushed in private cash games, and couldn't stand the heat any longer.
My guess is after a few years he missed the game as he did have some very nice wins over the years, made adjustments to his play, and of course decided to come back in the Negreanu match.
The Asian woman at the table is just a poker player. She didn't do anything wrong. Garrett Adelstein is known for sometimes long contemplations on whether to fold or call, and he often chats to himself while he's doing it. She just happened to be sitting next to him and added a little flair to the chat which Garrett didn't mind at all. Garrett is very well liked, nobody minds him doing all that.
He talks too much.
I thought she was very attractive!
Always struck me as interesting about poker playing women, most of them are very attractive.
Joe what you were watching was a "teaching" video. It was someone taking the hand from the broadcast and commenting later on all the ways to play the hand, odds, possibilities, hand theory etc. They want you to sign up to their site and they breakdown other hands etc to make you a better player
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
was that him? i have been out of the loop for years and don't even know what he looks like now
i will confidently say that Sheikhan comfortably resides in the top 5 of any "biggest asshats in poker history" list
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
I hadn't seen him in a long time, but i'm 99% sure it's him.
You're certainly right about Sheikhan. That player Tony G perhaps gets honorable mention. LOL
It taught me to turn off the sound and look at the girl.
You're right, but any money they make for "teaching" is far second to the big money they really want and that is poker website affiliate commissions.
For sure
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I was a little handicapped in my analysis as I don't have sound on my computer so I didn't know
what Hellmuth and Polk were saying to each other. And of course with pros what is said can play
a big factor in the decision.
That’s it, I want a CU Texas Hold ‘Em game. We got some legit knowledgeable players here!
You can take the knowledgeable ones for your game.
Give me the ones that haven't progressed past Indian Poker in my Texas Hold ‘Em game.
I'm been trying to tell ya, Polk made the decision to fold within a second after Hellmuth made the bet. Polk didn't snap fold because it's a TV event, and he was just posturing for the camera, trying to be entertaining for the show.
Hellmuth opening his mouth meant nothing to Polk as far as his decision to fold. I've seen large stakes cash games when players chat when they're weak or strong. Maybe that's a tell with inexperienced 1/2 players. But Hellmuth is way too smart and experienced to give his hand away like that for 90k.
Hellmuth played the hand badly in the betting, and that's not the first time i've seen him play a winning hand poorly. As Doyle Brunson once said about poker, paraphrase, "it's not about winning or losing a particular hand, it's about making the right decisions."
Hellmuth of course won the hand. However he should have won a lot more if he would have played it right.
There are free to play websites whereby a private table could be set up and we could play each other. Also a private tourney could be set up for us to do the same thing. Sort of like a WSOP tourney for Sports Talk.
Some sites even though the chips are fictional, push you to buy fictional chips. But i've never bought chips and never will. They normally give ya a number of free chips to start, and more free chips in certain time periods say every 24 hours or whatever. You could just play with that. So there wouldn't be any expense involved whatsoever.
I don't think they have affiliate commissions on free chips, but in case they do, everyone just signs up to the website at random to avoid any conflict of interest with anyone wishing to possibly profit off anyone else. It would be for pure fun.
The only problem is none of you would beat me. I'd own your fictional chips in a short period of time. Maybe take me a bit longer if i was getting bad cards.
Once again that's not what the person who played the hand said. Far from it. Darin you can listen to stevek or the guy who played the hand. Here is the conversion between the two. I guess decide for yourself.
Hand Review: How Hellmuth Talked Polk Out of Paying Him $90,000
Polk wasn't shy about his initial instinct, saying he was almost certainly calling but wanted the count just in case. Luckily for Polk, this wasn't an online hand with a short time bank. He realized he had some time and decided to use it, just in case he could figure anything else out that would help his decision.
Hellmuth initially let Polk muse on his own. Then, he decided he could try to prod him toward a call by responding. The key part of the exchange happened right when Polk announced he was considering a huge laydown. Perhaps sensing his chance of a call slipping away, Hellmuth acted.
"I mean, I could easily have...you know...," he trailed off.
"What could you easily have?" Polk responded with a look of skepticism. "You just bet a lot into very, very little."
"I could have a set."
"Could you have a set? I don't think you could have a set here. C'mon Phil, you're better than that."
"I could have the blockers, two tens."
That was the last straw for Polk, whose skepticism reached its peak, and he said he was leaning toward a fold. In a last ditch effort, Hellmuth said he could have the ace-ten of spades.
Trapping Himself With His Words
While the hand could potentially be a close decision depending on how Polk sees Hellmuth's range, one factor clearly pointed him in the right direction: Hellmuth's table talk. While Polk is a math-oriented player who has made known in the past his disdain for trying to deviate too much from fundamentally correct play, he wasn't above using the clues in front of him.
Hellmuth simply made the mistake of opening his mouth when he had nothing constructive to say. He didn't have a plan. He quickly realized that when he trailed off, realizing that, in fact, he couldn't easily have very many hands when he was raising a bet of $7,000 to $97,200.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
As soon as Hellmuth made the all-in bet and it came around for Polk to make a play and there was the chip count. Polk had a broad smile on his face and the first words out of his mouth were "this is insane."
That's the behavior of someone who has already decided to fold.
As already stated, anything Polk said after that was simply posturing.
I do agree with ya that Hellmuth was trying to prod Polk into a call. But Hellmuth was broadly smiling as well and knew that it was hopeless. He's seen it all before when a player is going to fold. Hellmuth played to the camera as well.
I'm not sure what you want me to say at this point.
Polk wasn't shy about his initial instinct, saying he was almost certainly calling but wanted the count just in case. Luckily for Polk, this wasn't an online hand with a short time bank. He realized he had some time and decided to use it, just in case he could figure anything else out that would help his decision.
While Polk may have come to the same conclusion Phil's yap sealed the deal. Phil knew it immediately
On to the next hand steve
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Polk would have made the exact same decision online.
You refute your conclusion with your own earlier commentary. You stated that Polk was a calling station. Well it's obvious during Polk's hiatus, that he's adjusted his game to correct that. So instead of an incorrect hero call, he made the correct lay down.
Two years ago he probably makes the snap call, and most losing poker players would make the same snap call. But this seems to be the new and improved Doug Polk.
We'll have to agree to disagree. No problem.
Sometimes playing against guys that don’t have a clue are dangerous because they are capable of anything lol.
He is a calling station and that's probably one of the reasons Phil pushed. So that was the inference drawn. Again, I'll stick with what the player who made the decision said. That he was almost certainly calling. So really you are disagreeing with what Doug Polk stated.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<<< He is a calling station >>>
Correction, "was" a calling station.
If you wish to believe what poker players spew at the poker table, well then that's your prerogative.
The bottom line considering circumstances already mentioned, is that Hellmuth didn't need to shove to get all of Polk's chips in that hand. Patience is a key to winning poker including patience in a particular hand.
What can be deduced from the video is that Doug Polk has improved his game as to not be a calling station, and that Phil Hellmuth still usually cannot beat the better cash game players.
Hellmuth seems to do much better in tournies where it's a different style of play, and where he has won a number of bracelets over the years.
Thanks for posting this. I sure do miss playing live poker.