Two most overrated goalies of all time. Patrick Roy and Marty Brodeur.
Goldenage
Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
So why pick on the goalie with the most wins all time in the NHL and the goalie with the most shutouts ?
Well, no one is picking on them. It's simply the truth.
What is a goalies job in the NHL ? Simply, to stop the puck, right.
Why is Patrick Roy's rookie card selling for so much money when he doesn't even break the Top 50 all time in
save percentage ? Save percentage is the amount of shots a goalie gets on net, and how many he saves. Patrick
is no where to be found in the Top 50 shot blockers of all time.
Marty Brodeur at least cracks the top 50, but he comes in at number 41.
Perhaps it's because they're Canadian and the great white north really wants to pump up it's players ? Perhaps.
The truth is the top 3 goalies of all time do not come from Canada. Sorry Canada. No bias here. Just the stats, or facts.
There are only five NHL goalies who are at the incredible all time 0.92 or above save percentage. At 0.922 are Dominik Hasek, Tuukka Rask, Ken Dryden. Ben Bishop at 0.921, and Tim Thomas at 0.920
Ken Dryden played for the Canadiens, under the great defensive coach Scotty Bowman, and he had great defenses play in front of him. Just like Brodeur, who accumulated all those lifetime shutouts by sometimes only stopping 20 shots a game. Brodeur had the luxury of playing behind some great defenses. Dryden just simply never had to make the saves that Hasek or Thomas or Rask did. Dryden's defense and back checking forwards always allowed him to make the simple saves with very few rebounds. For those who watched Dryden and his Canadiens, and also watched Hasek and Thomas, you know what is being said here.
You say, wait a second. I'm sure Dryden, Brodeur, and Roy were incredible during the postseason. That's why they are legends.
Nope. Save percentage in the post season has Dryden at #44 all time. Roy at #28. Brodeur at #25.
So that leaves us with Hasek, Tuukka Rask, Ben Bishop, and Tim Thomas as the greatest regular season shot blockers above 0.92 during the regular season. How did they do in the postseason ? Ben Bishop is #12 at 0.924. Hasek is #11 at 0.925
Tukkaa Rask (still playing) is 0.926
Tim Thomas is the only NHL goalie in the postseason with over 50 games to ever do the impossible, which is obtain a save percentage over 0,93. In fact, he's not just at 0.93, he's at 0.933, which just blows away his peers.
So Tim Thomas statistically can be considered the greatest shot blocker of all time. Although anyone can put Hasek, Rask, and Ben Bishop in that same category.
Sorry Canada, Dryden, Patrick Roy, and Marty needs to face the shot blocking facts.
The USA has two of the greatest goaltenders who ever lived, as does Finland and Czeckoslovakia.
Comments
Interesting I always thought Roy and Brodeur were in the best ever conversation. But I know very little about hockey
Thanks perkdog for taking the time to read. Being that you are from New England, where Thomas played, take a look at this next fact. Tim Thomas did the absolute impossible in the Stanley Cup finals against Vancouver. If you ever get the time to watch those games, you will see THE GREATEST goaltending display that the NHL has ever seen.
On May 27, 2011, Thomas posted a shutout victory over the Tampa Bay Lightning in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals, sending the Bruins to their first Stanley Cup appearance since 1990. In the Final, Thomas again posted a shutout victory in Game 7 against the Vancouver Canucks. During the Bruins' playoff run, he set the record for most saves in a single post-season with 798 and the most saves in a Stanley Cup series with 238, and broke Frank McCool's 66-year-old record of fewest goals allowed in a seven-game Stanley Cup Final, allowing only eight goals total (for an all-time record .967 save percentage in the Stanley Cup Finals). Thomas also became the first goaltender ever to post a shutout in a Game 7 on the road. He won the Conn Smythe Trophy as playoff MVP, and at 37 years, 62 days, Thomas is the oldest recipient of the award. He became just the second American-born NHL player to ever win the award, 17 years after Brian Leetch did so in 1994, plus Thomas was also the first American-born goaltender to receive this honor.
So Perkdog, to watch a goalie get a save percentage of 0.967 during a Stanley Cup final is just not human. It really is
greater or equal to any other sporting performance in the history of professional sports. It's right up there with the all
time greatest feats in sports history.
Tim Thomas is simply the best shot blocker to ever live. If you ever get the chance to go back and watch the whole series, you will see just great save after great save, and pure dominance like never seen before.
Very nice Dissertation 👍👍🍻
Thanks perkdog. New England fans have had the pleasure of watching the greatest NHL defensman of all time, the greatest NFL quarterback of all time, and believe it or not, two of the greatest NHL goaltenders of all time back to back. Tuukka Rask took over right after Tim Thomas retired.
Spoiled brats. LOL.
Hahaha believe me I know we are very fortunate, especially with the Pats but above all I think the 2004 World Series with the Sox was the one that really meant the most to New Englanders
thank you for that analysis. I dont know much about hockey, but do have at least a little interest.
I also thought Patrick Roy was at least in the discussion of goalie goat. I do remember Hasek being raved about. did he get a late start? seems like he didn't play as long as others.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Thanks Craig. Hasek got his start with the Chicago Blackhawks. He was backing up another great in Ed Belfour.
If you ever get to watch tape of the Penguins-Blackhawks Stanley Cup final, Mike Keenan pulls Belfour in a 6-5 Penguins win in Chicago. Hasek comes in and stones Lemieux on two breakaways. He did let in a few goals, but played great.
Hasek was great in the regular season and postseason. Thomas was just beyond great in the postseason.
They are, and not a lot of people know a thing about hockey.
If you actually do know about the game of hockey, you know that Roy and Brodeur are two of the all time best. What a guys hockey card sells for is irrelevant to the discussion.
Save % is a great stat if you don't take it too seriously, just like any other stat, it tells part of the story.
.> @Goldenage said:
How about Jacques Plante? You missed him.
The goalie position has evolved, somewhat like the Quarterback spot in football. Save % is higher now than it ever has been.
Simply listing the top save % goalies does not tell the story at all.
From 1987-88 to 1991-1992 Roy was the save % leader four out of 5 seasons and never had a % better than .914, yet you look at his save % and say he is over rated.
He was the "best" goalie in the NHL when he played for Montreal with a .904 save %, and a very good goalie when he played for Colorado when he had a .918 %. In fact he averaged a .923 % in his final two years when he was 36 and 37 years old.
Using your logic, he was better at the age of 37 than he was at 27. He played in 1028 games.
Dryden played well for 7 years, he was the best of his time, but had a short career. Brodeur played for a team with a great defense, he was a great goalie, but not quite as good as Roy. He played in over 1200 games! Winning championships factors in for many, not so much for me.
No argument on Hasek, probably the best of all time.
Tuukka Rask (546 games) led the league in save % once, Ben Bishop (413 games), once, and Tim Thomas (426 games) did it twice but other than those two years he was never above .921 and he had a very short career, certainly far to short to be considered an all time great in this era.
If someone played in one game and had a shutout, he would not be considered the best of all time.
Goalies can play better when they are 37. If you read my above facts about Tim Thomas posting an incredible 0.967 save percentage in the postseason, he did it at age 37 also.
Patrick Roy's leading the league in save percentage from 88-92 to justify his "greatness" is absurd.
Let me let you in on a little secret. Hasek, Rask, Bishop, and Thomas weren't in the league at that time. If they
were, little Patrick would be down the list, like he always is.
Even the non-hockey fan can understand this simple truth. Save percentage is based on a goalie seeing the puck, and stopping the puck. It also comes down to goalies making incredible saves, for which goalies like Hasek, Tim Thomas, Tuukka Rask, and even Jonathan Quick are known for. Patrick Roy is not in their category. He's not even in the Top 50 shot stoppers all time.
What else makes a goalie great besides stopping the puck ? How he drinks out of his water bottle ? How he tapes his stick ?
Patrick Roy played on great teams in Colorado and Montreal. Marty had great teams in New Jersey. That's why they have so many wins and shutouts.
When it comes to stopping shots, they can't carry the other guys jocks. It's that simple that even a non-hockey fan
can understand.
I just reread your post and missed a few things.
1- Marty and Patrick played in the same enlarged equipment era as Hasek and Thomas. The goalie position has
not "evolved" as you have said. Marty and Patrick just weren't as good at stopping the puck.
2- Save percentage was not kept during the Plante era.
3- Roberto Luongo would have won championships with New Jersey if he was there. But he wasn't. He was a better
all time shot stopper than Marty. Easily by far. Ryan Miller too.
4- Dryden was the best of his time. He was also an all time great, as stated in my OP. He was just not that good in
the postseason. Sorry Ken. You drop down the list because of that.
5- "If someone played one game and had a shutout, he would not be considered the best of all time."......Congrats on
that factual statement. But it has nothing to do with anything that has been discussed.
Yes you did.
>
Of course it has. You can only judge players against their peers and Roy was the best in the NHL from 1987-1992 using your number.
Wrong again, https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/p/plantja01.html
Luongo was very good. And you are right, he didn't play for NJ or Montreal or the California Golden Seals either.
He was good enough to backstop his team to 6 wins in 8 trips to the finals. He had save % of .920,.929 and .932 those are great %'s!
Trying to prove a point there, I guess you missed that too, and yes it goes directly to career length, something you ignored.
One of the guys you say is so good; Tim Thomas has two fantastic seasons and never played in more than 59 games in a season in his short career, so of course his save % is going to be high. Might be since he got a lot of rest he stopped a couple more pucks out of a hundred shots.
Marty had 12 seasons in which he played in 70 or more games. To rate Thomas above Brodeur is unbelievable. All on the weight of 2 seasons. Just think of how much better Thomas would have been had he retired after 2010-2011!
Better yet had he only played in those 57 games! GOAT!
I'm done here.
I know nothing about hockey and don't really care to, but I do love me some good controversy and stirring the pot. Well done @Goldenage !
I saw both play these 2 are top 10 for sure.
FWIW Forsberg has told me that Roy, Brodeur and Hasek were the best goalies he's ever played with or against.
Save pct is to goalies as fielding pct is to baseball. Taken with a grain of salt.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
In a way we are splitting hairs here. As I've stated in another thread, NHL goalies are so close in comparison that they have very limited outcome on a players plus/minus.
Have to disagree comparing save percentage to fielding errors. Fielding errors do not contribute to a team losing as does a save percentage contributing to a team winning.
If Tim Thomas did not have that 0.967 save percentage in 2011 for the Bruins when they beat the Canucks seven games in Vancouver, then the Bruins simply do not win the Stanley Cup.
As you well know, every NHL player will tell you that the most important thing you need to win a Stanley Cup is a real hot goalie. It
is a real important position. Much more than a first baseman making a bobble in the third inning costing his team the World Series. One soft goal can
make the difference between victory and defeat when games are so close.
Playoff save percentage all time
Tim Thomas 0.933 The best !
Ken Dryden 0.915 #44 all time
So many goalies are ahead of Dryden all time. Dryden is not even close to Johnny Bower. Lol.
https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/nhl-goalies-all-time-playoff-save-percentage-leaders.html
It's ok I disagree with a lot of what you wrote and still do. Fielding pct and goalie pct and just one piece of the puzzle. I'll take Roy, Marty or Hasek any day of the week and twice on Sunday over anyone else after.
Yes, Tim Thomas had a great Cup run but one didnt need to know his save pct to know that
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Bill Buckner and the Red Sox beg to differ
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
And for the record I think Hasek was the best goalie I have ever seen period.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Cute answer, but silly. The Red Sox bullpen and failure to move runners that day cost them the game
much more than Buckner did. The Red Sox made three errors that day. The Mets made two. Were the other
four errors in that game as costly as Buckners ? The Red Sox had leads of 3-2 in the 7th and 5-3 in the 10th.
Was Buckner more responsible for the loss over a poor Red Sox poor bullpen ?
Lol. Five errors in that game that day. Were the other four errors as costly as Buckner's, or just Bill's ?
Red Sox had leads of 3-2 in the 7th and 5-3 in the 10th ? Did Buckner come out of the bullpen and blow those games ?
Bill Buckner's one error was just part of the game. The Red Sox bullpen and leaving too many men on base cost the Red Sox that day. Sox had 13 hits to the Mets 8. They stranded way too many base runners.
If you take Patrick Roy then you settle with a goalie who is not even in the Top 50 all time in save percentage.
Roy won many games because of the teams he played on. Brodeur could take showers inbetween shots in New Jersey. His defense was that good. Tim Thomas faced a record amount of shots in the 2011 NHL playoffs. Sounds to me like his defense was letting him down. All he did was flash another world performance that will never be touched. Too bad
Patrick, Marty, and Dominik will never sniff of his greatness in the postseason. That's ok. Take those guys.
The thing is I don't care about save percentage nearly as much as you. Your entire thesis is based in something I don't hold in high regard. It's ok. We can still be friends.
The difference of .10 is one goal every 4 games or 1 goal in 100 shots over a career. Soft saves. Tough saves. Low value saves . High value saves. Redirects. Blocked shots. Defections. Crappy and biased stat keepers. Goals off your own players. Posts and cross bars. Odd man rushes. They are all play into pucks either going into the net or not. High value saves and how your team plays with you in the nets are more meaningful to me then the measurement of how many times a puck hit your pads, stick or glove. I do know that with great goaltenders teams tend to take more chances figuring you can bail them out on odd man rushes. No way to measure.
A case could be made for Brodeur that any save percentage deficit could be offset by his stick handling prowess. He was the greatest and was and shoulders better than his generation. He was The Godfather. He started so many offensive opportunities.
I only saw Dryden at the end of his career so for me it's
Hasek
Brodeur
Roy
Of who I saw play up to now. ( but its REALLY close for me. All are toss ups)
Tim Thomas's 2010-11 season was one for the ages.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I mean, Chris Osgood had a .916 save % (.918 with Detroit) and I don't think anybody's putting him up near the top despite his career 2.09 GAA in the playoffs. He was out of this world in 2008 bailing out Dominik Hasek though.
This is true. A guy who won't show up anywhere near the top of all time save percentage leaders is Mike Vernon who won two cups and an incredible 96-97 playoff run and season. Won the Conn Smythe.
Jean-Sebastien Giguere had a sick run 2002-3. Had a .945 save percentage in the Playoffs with the Ducks , won the Conn Smythe as MVP and they lost in 7 in the finals.
A lot of people like Roy as GOAT goalie as he won 3 Conn Smythe's. Most all- time. He had some incredible playoffs
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Vernon was incredible in the playoffs that year. And, of course, he bloodied Patrick Roy in the biggest game of the year.
I'm still salty - as is Vernon from what I understand - at the way the Wings got rid of him after winning the Cup. I get it, someone had to go and Osgood was the young starter and deserved to stay, but it still sucks. They should have worked a deal to trade him to San Jose and then get him back.
Best I've ever seen, too, with Brodeur close on his heels. As with all stats in a team sport, none of which measure only the individual to whom they are assigned, save % is mostly a goalie stat, but it's also a team defense stat. Any goalie can stop 99% of the shots that come from the blue line, and no goalie can stop more than 50% of the shots that come on 2-on-1 breakaways. Goalies on teams with great defenses face mostly soft shots from distance and it pads their save %; goalies on teams with bad defenses face shots from shorter distances, on average, and more breakaways. Your analogy to fielding % is spot on; they both measure something, but they don't measure a whole lot more than they do measure.
Milton Bradley was a better player than Ty Cobb because he had 125 home runs to Cobb's 117.
And he had a wicked glove hand.
I did not see this coming.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It's obvious, I'm convinced.
I am along the thoughts that save % is not as important as stated.
So where does Sawchuck rate?
Tim Thomas most likely will not make the HOF. He did have a great run.
how about Rask?
No mention of Durham. played 7 years and won 6 Venezia trophies. Maybe its 6 and 5
I might ask this of you knowledgeable HK fans. What goalies not in the HOF either retired or still playing are on or had a hof career?
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
I saw Roy, Brodeur, and Hasek all live, Roy a few times. Definitely all top 10 by my vote. When they were hot they were blazing hot, like 3 mile island wings hot.
Osgood gets my hometown nod too
This is fascinating to read for a non-hockey guy. A couple of takeaways.
while I don't know what is a better measure than save percentage, there must be something better. even I can see save % cannot be the final answer.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Yes Thomas's career was rather short. The interesting thing about his playoff numbers is that 2011 accounted for exactly 50% of all post season games he ever played in. Boston played in an incredible playoff 25 games that year. If not a record it's close to one. Other goalies cited played up to five times more games.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
You’d have to follow hockey and watch these guys play to see which goalies are most consistent, and which goalies make the spectacular saves that other goalies couldn’t.
Most feel that Hasek was the best at being consistent and making saves others couldn’t. Others feel its Lundquist. You’ll get lots of opinions on who was the best.
Ben Bishop is 6’7, so he covers a lot of the net and doesn’t have to move as much as a Jonathan Quick. Quick probably makes the most spectacular saves.
Being that the top 5 save percentage guys all time were so close, I had to go with one, which isn’t easy, and what Thomas did to win the most important trophy in hockey, and what no other goalie has ever done, nor will ever do again, for me puts him above the rest.
whose the better goalie here - a goalie with a stellar defense who sees only 20 shots per game with a .900 save %, or the goalie with crap defense in front of him who sees 40 shots per game and lets in 4 goals (.900 save %).
Why would Bob McKenzie, when discussing Claude Julien's firing during intermission of the NBC hockey game last night discuss the fact that Carey Price has a save percentage below 0.90 so far this year ? Why would a network hired, well respected analyst like Bob McKenzie discuss such a useless stat in reference to the poor play of the Montreal Canadiens recently ? Perhaps the experts on this board could chime in on why Bob would do such a thing. Lol.
Speaking of hockey, what a joy it was to watch this game the other night. Took me back to my youth.
Nobody said the stat was useless, only that a ranking of goalies based on nothing but this one stat is useless. See the difference? No? Yeah, I didn't think you would.
I agree Dallas. You can't say that fielding percentage is the only stat to rate a fielder in baseball, and you can't say the same for goalies. Except when looking at the quickest goalies ever in the net, there are three names that come to mind, Dominik Hasek (the human pretzel), Tim Thomas, and Jonathan Quick. These three because of their quickness, made the impossible saves that other goalies couldn't. Ben Bishop gets some love because even though he wasn't as quick as they were, he is just so huge, which works to his advantage, and he doesn't have to be as quick. The truth is that Tim Thomas and Dominik Hasek were the quickest, most agile goalies with the best save percentages in the NHL. Hasek did it over a longer period of time, and Thomas was on another planet in the postseason. Bobby Clarke said it's too bad Bobby Orr didn't have another league to play in. Well, Tim Thomas postseason stats belong in that other league with Orr as well.
Let me ask you this question. Which percentage gives a better count of a players effectiveness ? Fielding percentage or save percentage ? I would say unquestionably save percentage is a much better metric to evaluate goalies than fielding percentage is to evaluate fielders in baseball. Agree or disagree ?
Plus Tim Thomas was fat. That helped
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
You don't watch much hockey, do you? You could ask every hockey fan in the world which three goalies come to mind first when you say "quickest" and I don't think any of them would name these three. All good goalies, no doubt, but Thomas and Quick wouldn't be on anyone's list of "quickest". Ed Belfour was certifiably insane, and every once in a while he'd have a complete breakdown and give up a ton of goals and kill his save %, but he was most definitely "quicker" - and better - than Tim Thomas. Goaltending and goaltending stats are very much more complicated than you are trying to make them sound.
Both of them are fine for identifying terrible goalies/fielders; if you have a save % or a fielding % of .800, then you suck. But once you get above a certain level ( about .990 for a first baseman, about .910 for a goalie) they both become virtually useless. I do agree that save % is "better", but don't confuse that with my agreeing that it's terribly important.
Fielding percentage is completely useless because it says nothing about the balls you don't get to. Save percentage has to be at least a little better than that.
Raw stats are useless to compare players of even slightly different eras. To dip back into baseball for a moment, as relief pitchers Hoyt Wilhelm, Mike Marshall, and Bobby Thigpen were playing very different games.
Tim Thomas was great. Twice. His two Vezina seasons are better than any Roy ever had. After that he falls off a cliff. He simply wasn't good enough for long enough.
It's of course imperfect to say that the leader in any one stat is the best of all time, but, if I can again make an analogy to baseball, looking at WAR is a good place to start. Ten best players in WAR:
You can argue about placement on this list, and of course this doesn't prove that Ruth is best of all time, but there aren't many (any?) serious contenders who aren't on this list.
Point Shares is a rough equivalent for hockey. Wayne Gretzky is number 1 all time, with Raymond Bourque number 2. This is the list of the top ten in Goalie Point Shares, or rather point shares contributed just by goalie play:
Another reasonable number is goals saved above average. Top ten:
My big takeaway from this is that Luongo was far better than I ever thought he was. Also, of course, Roy and Brodeur are not overrated.
^^Excellent post!^^
Point Shares and GSAA are both good stats, and a whole lot better stats than Save %, but they still suffer from the same drawbacks as all hockey (and football) stats do - individual stats can't capture value completely in a team game. No goalie stat is worthless, but none are worth much by themselves; the more you look at, the better you'll see the whole picture. And, like football, the game and equipment has changed a lot over the years. So much so that no matter how many stats you look at you will never, ever, be able to compare Martin Brodeur to Terry Sawchuk.
@daltex If you look at the two goalie lists it pretty much looks like the consensus top goalies of all time list. Roy and Esposito rated out well on both. Only 5 goalies made both lists. Roberto, Roy, Brodeur, Espo and Jacques. At the end of the day no real shockers.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Lol. You guys are liking daltex list and Hasek isn’t on the first one and he’s behind Patrick on the 2nd one. Lol.
Sure it is. There are two lists
Another reasonable number is goals saved above average. Top ten:
Tony Esposito* 1968-84 498
Patrick Roy* 1984-03 461
Dominik Hasek* 1990-08 413
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Point shares is better than save percentage ? Lol.
Hasek is #1 in save percentage and is considered by many the best all time, but he doesn’t even crack the top 10 in point shares. Lol
It sure doesn't take much to make you LOL, does it? It looks to me like it's your go-to response when you don't understand what is being discussed. To each his own; I save my LOLs for when I respond to incredibly stupid posts.
LOL