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Converting PayPal Funds Into Bitcoin

ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 16, 2021 12:42PM in U.S. Coin Forum

:o:o:o

Now that PayPal allows you to buy Bitcoin from that platform, I am interested in learning more about the process of buying, selling, holding, fees, trading, etc.

Any of you playing with Bitcoin on PayPal?

I want to learn as much as possible before making a decision.

Thank You all for your input, Chris

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    KurisuKurisu Posts: 1,849 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I did a couple months ago...3 different ones...2% fees...my total has about doubled in value since then :smiley:
    I do these things long-term so I won't cash them for quite a while.
    Haven't actually been playing with cryptos or wallets otherwise.

    Coins are Neato!

    "If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright

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    thebeavthebeav Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I had some bitcoins a few years ago. I do know that you hold them in a digital wallet. So it would be like 'spending' your paypal money and now storing bitcoins elsewhere. I suppose it's just the same if you were to buy bitcoins with your credit card.
    It would be a little more handy if Paypal would buy your bitcoins and thereby turn them into cash.

  • Options
    ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Kurisu said:
    I did a couple months ago...3 different ones...2% fees...my total has about doubled in value since then :smiley:
    I do these things long-term so I won't cash them for quite a while.
    Haven't actually been playing with cryptos or wallets otherwise.

    You bought 3 different types of crypto or 3 different times.

    So, Paypal holds the crypto in an account for you, Correct? I guess the account value changes daily?

  • Options
    TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’ve thought about dabbling with bitcoin but what keeps me from it is the impending doom for it in the back of my head once the government decides to outlaw any virtual currency but its own. Whether that happens or not, who knows? But it is risky. Plus you have to pay taxes on it anyway...

  • Options
    matt_dacmatt_dac Posts: 959 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Coinbase is the most popular site to buy, sell, and manage crypto. I dabble with 6 different cryptos, and have nearly tripled my money in 6 months, but I'm holding for the long term because I think it will go up further.

    For non crypto friends, Bitcoin is just one of MANY crypto currencies each with their own unique technology and function. Bitcoin is the oldest and most well known crypto coin.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Kurisu said:
    I did a couple months ago...3 different ones...2% fees...my total has about doubled in value since then :smiley:
    I do these things long-term so I won't cash them for quite a while.
    Haven't actually been playing with cryptos or wallets otherwise.

    This. Most of the platforms have similar fees although 2% seems a bit high. I think Coinbase is 1.5%???

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @matt_dac said:
    Coinbase is the most popular site to buy, sell, and manage crypto. I dabble with 6 different cryptos, and have nearly tripled my money in 6 months, but I'm holding for the long term because I think it will go up further.

    For non crypto friends, Bitcoin is just one of MANY crypto currencies each with their own unique technology and function. Bitcoin is the oldest and most well known crypto coin.

    I'm an Ethereum fan myself...although I've got a grand total of $250 "invested" in it.

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    derrybderryb Posts: 36,203 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2021 2:12PM

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:

    @Kurisu said:
    I did a couple months ago...3 different ones...2% fees...my total has about doubled in value since then :smiley:
    I do these things long-term so I won't cash them for quite a while.
    Haven't actually been playing with cryptos or wallets otherwise.

    You bought 3 different types of crypto or 3 different times.

    So, Paypal holds the crypto in an account for you, Correct? I guess the account value changes daily?

    acct value changes by the minute. You don't own the crypto, it's like an ETF in that you do not own the actual underlying asset. When you buy you get a fractional piece of the crypto and your value moves up and down based on your piece X the current crypto price. It's not the same as having a digital wallet that holds your personal cryptos.

    You can see some live price charts here for the top 20 cryptos. PP offers only a couple of them and RH offers seven:

    Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar

  • Options
    derrybderryb Posts: 36,203 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TurtleCat said:
    I’ve thought about dabbling with bitcoin but what keeps me from it is the impending doom for it in the back of my head once the government decides to outlaw any virtual currency but its own. Whether that happens or not, who knows? But it is risky. Plus you have to pay taxes on it anyway...

    You "have to" pay taxes on any capital gain unless the capital asset is held or traded in a ROTH IRA until eligible for tax free withdrawal at a certain age.

    Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar

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    ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2021 2:24PM

    Wow, thanks guys for all the info so far :)

    I love PayPal and have a high cash balance there as it is getting very hard to find quality error coin inventory right now. I have been transferring the money out and then into a brokerage account to buy stocks but wanted to try some crypto as I have none and for diversification.

    I think I should buy in slowly and perhaps constantly.

    Probably should get my feet wet and check it out.

    I have also had the fund RIOT on my watchlist for a while now but it keeps going straight up. Maybe on a pull back.

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @TurtleCat said:
    I’ve thought about dabbling with bitcoin but what keeps me from it is the impending doom for it in the back of my head once the government decides to outlaw any virtual currency but its own. Whether that happens or not, who knows? But it is risky. Plus you have to pay taxes on it anyway...

    You "have to" pay taxes on any capital gain unless the capital asset is held or traded in a ROTH IRA until eligible for tax free withdrawal at a certain age.

    LOL. Oooo...another ethical dilemma arises on the forum.

  • Options
    TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @TurtleCat said:
    I’ve thought about dabbling with bitcoin but what keeps me from it is the impending doom for it in the back of my head once the government decides to outlaw any virtual currency but its own. Whether that happens or not, who knows? But it is risky. Plus you have to pay taxes on it anyway...

    You "have to" pay taxes on any capital gain unless the capital asset is held or traded in a ROTH IRA until eligible for tax free withdrawal at a certain age.

    Given what my CPA told me, many people seem to think virtual currencies are a tax shelter.

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:
    Wow, thanks guys for all the info so far :)

    I love PayPal and have a high cash balance there as it is getting very hard to find quality error coin inventory right now. I have been transferring the money out and then into a brokerage account to buy stocks but wanted to try some crypto as I have none and for diversification.

    I think I should buy in slowly and perhaps constantly.

    Probably should get my feet wet and check it out.

    I have also had the fund RIOT on my watchlist for a while now but it keeps going straight up. Maybe on a pull back.

    If you're going to buy in constantly, definitely do some comparison shopping on fees. If PayPal is basically a crypto ETF, you might be able to find a crypto ETF that has lower fees.

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    amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So what is there to own, an electron stream? I just can't get on board with this invisible money!

    @derryb said:

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:

    @Kurisu said:
    I did a couple months ago...3 different ones...2% fees...my total has about doubled in value since then :smiley:
    I do these things long-term so I won't cash them for quite a while.
    Haven't actually been playing with cryptos or wallets otherwise.

    You bought 3 different types of crypto or 3 different times.

    So, Paypal holds the crypto in an account for you, Correct? I guess the account value changes daily?

    acct value changes by the minute. You don't own the crypto, it's like an ETF in that you do not own the actual underlying asset. When you buy you get a fractional piece of the crypto and your value moves up and down based on your piece X the current crypto price. It's not the same as having a digital wallet that holds your personal cryptos.

    You can see some live price charts here for the top 20 cryptos. PP offers only a couple of them and RH offers seven:

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:
    So what is there to own, an electron stream? I just can't get on board with this invisible money!

    @derryb said:

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:

    @Kurisu said:
    I did a couple months ago...3 different ones...2% fees...my total has about doubled in value since then :smiley:
    I do these things long-term so I won't cash them for quite a while.
    Haven't actually been playing with cryptos or wallets otherwise.

    You bought 3 different types of crypto or 3 different times.

    So, Paypal holds the crypto in an account for you, Correct? I guess the account value changes daily?

    acct value changes by the minute. You don't own the crypto, it's like an ETF in that you do not own the actual underlying asset. When you buy you get a fractional piece of the crypto and your value moves up and down based on your piece X the current crypto price. It's not the same as having a digital wallet that holds your personal cryptos.

    It's not that different from owning a PM ETF. You are still trading electrons.

    Frankly, all assets from stocks to bonds to bitcoin rely on the existence of a marketplace and the perceived value within the marketplace.

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TurtleCat said:

    @derryb said:

    @TurtleCat said:
    I’ve thought about dabbling with bitcoin but what keeps me from it is the impending doom for it in the back of my head once the government decides to outlaw any virtual currency but its own. Whether that happens or not, who knows? But it is risky. Plus you have to pay taxes on it anyway...

    You "have to" pay taxes on any capital gain unless the capital asset is held or traded in a ROTH IRA until eligible for tax free withdrawal at a certain age.

    Given what my CPA told me, many people seem to think virtual currencies are a tax shelter.

    A lot of people think that about gold and silver also...or rare coins. And, frankly, cash payments also come under the category of things people think they can shield from the IRS.

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    nagsnags Posts: 793 ✭✭✭✭

    I thought (could very well be wrong), with paypal, robinhood... that you don't personally own the cypto. While there are probably some advantage of doing so, it may be better to have your own wallet and personally own the investment. Just don't lose the password.

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    WillieBoyd2WillieBoyd2 Posts: 5,037 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2021 2:52PM

    I started doing my US taxes and saw this line on the IRS Form 1040:

    At any time during 2020, did you receive, sell, send, exchange, or otherwise acquire any financial interest in any virtual currency?

    :)

    https://www.brianrxm.com
    The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
    Coins in Movies
    Coins on Television

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    1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 13,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TurtleCat said:
    I’ve thought about dabbling with bitcoin but what keeps me from it is the impending doom for it in the back of my head once the government decides to outlaw any virtual currency but its own. Whether that happens or not, who knows? But it is risky. Plus you have to pay taxes on it anyway...

    I forget where but some municipality [ies] are accepting BitCoin for payments.

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb

    Bad transactions with : nobody to date

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    TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1630Boston said:

    @TurtleCat said:
    I’ve thought about dabbling with bitcoin but what keeps me from it is the impending doom for it in the back of my head once the government decides to outlaw any virtual currency but its own. Whether that happens or not, who knows? But it is risky. Plus you have to pay taxes on it anyway...

    I forget where but some municipality [ies] are accepting BitCoin for payments.

    Eventually they have to convert to fiat. I just personally don’t see the value proposition in a non fiat money. Heck, what’s different between this and the old Liberty dollars that the government sued over?

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    derrybderryb Posts: 36,203 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @nags said:
    I thought (could very well be wrong), with paypal, robinhood... that you don't personally own the cypto. While there are probably some advantage of doing so, it may be better to have your own wallet and personally own the investment. Just don't lose the password.

    trading cryptos on a platform like PP and RH is like trading precious metals using ETFs. Buying and selling is the push of a button. A digital wallet requires much more time and effort. Think of the platforms as paper cryptos. After all they are derivatives as are ETFs. Platforms bring ease and quickness to crypto trading just as ETFs did for physical metals.

    Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar

  • Options
    derrybderryb Posts: 36,203 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:
    Wow, thanks guys for all the info so far :)

    I love PayPal and have a high cash balance there as it is getting very hard to find quality error coin inventory right now. I have been transferring the money out and then into a brokerage account to buy stocks but wanted to try some crypto as I have none and for diversification.

    I think I should buy in slowly and perhaps constantly.

    Probably should get my feet wet and check it out.

    I have also had the fund RIOT on my watchlist for a while now but it keeps going straight up. Maybe on a pull back.

    With PP I ran into a 20K weekly buy limit and a cumulative 50K annual buy limit per PP account. Selling a crypto and buying again counts against those limits. The only limits I have seen with RH are a week long deposit process and a $50K daily limit on cash transfers out of the account. The cash transfers out took only two days. As I said earlier there are no daytrading restrictions on cryptos like you have on equitites. Since crytpos are outside of the SEC rules you can buy and sell as many time as you like. While RH fess are low to none, you do lose on the spread between the actual buy/sell price and the one RH pegs you to. You have to trade a few times to get the hang of that one.

    Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar

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    KurisuKurisu Posts: 1,849 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2021 3:34PM

    @thebeav said:
    I had some bitcoins a few years ago. I do know that you hold them in a digital wallet. So it would be like 'spending' your paypal money and now storing bitcoins elsewhere. I suppose it's just the same if you were to buy bitcoins with your credit card.
    It would be a little more handy if Paypal would buy your bitcoins and thereby turn them into cash.

    They do. It was explained perfectly above, their fee is about on half a percent higher than using a crypto service and wallet and I'm willing to pay for the convenience of it. At any time I can simply turn them back into cash right in PayPal and then deposit cash back to my bank account.

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:

    @Kurisu said:
    I did a couple months ago...3 different ones...2% fees...my total has about doubled in value since then :smiley:
    I do these things long-term so I won't cash them for quite a while.
    Haven't actually been playing with cryptos or wallets otherwise.

    You bought 3 different types of crypto or 3 different times.

    So, Paypal holds the crypto in an account for you, Correct? I guess the account value changes daily?

    Correct...my crypto values are exactly the same as all the crypto markets. I simply own a share of PayPal's held crypto and they make a tiny percentage off of my holdings when I trade it through them.
    I can not take the crypto out of PayPal and move it to a wallet, but I can cash them at any time for an extra half percent compared to crypto services.

    @ErrorsOnCoins and @derryb above both provided perfectly accurate answers as well :smiley:

    Some of those whales above are doing this with much larger investments than I am lol! But I did raise my PP limit years ago for some large ebay transactions, so I believe my PP limit is still ridiculous, something like $500k! Lol!!!

    Coins are Neato!

    "If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright

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    derrybderryb Posts: 36,203 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PP is fine for cryptos if you are going to buy less than $50k per year and are going to buy and hold. Their $50k purchase limit includes all purchases including repurchases, which limits your ability to buy the dips and sell the highs to maximize profit. I personally prefer RH because there is no limit on number of trades or dollars invested. Plus I find the fees cheaper on RH. While PP does not have a limit on your number of trades, their limit on your cumulative purchase dollar total effectively limits your number of trades.

    Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar

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    AzurescensAzurescens Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021 1:19AM

    Anything but actual bitcoin in a wallet is like paper silver. PayPal, RobinHood, CashApp, Mastercard all offer "paper bitcoin", basically. People should buy actual bitcoins and keep them on an exchange (unfortunately all of those suck equally) or in a wallet.

    After this $GME fiasco, I'm pretty sure none of these funds actually have any money or silver or crypto. I'm 99% sure this is "the big one". Banks have shorted silver forever, HFs shorted GME which has had FTD every day since they never covered shorts, so it's not a stretch to think that bitcoin doesnt exist either.

    I wouldn't keep anything in RH after they limited buying stocks. I really think a lot of these groups have nowhere near the actual assets they claim to hold.

    Hedge funds double dipped into XRT, and that whole thing is about to blow up in their face again, and true bagholding heroes have just been buying more to DCA down. $GME volume today was next to nothing.

    I absolutely welcome any GME winner to this forum and to gold and silver and PCGS with open arms.

    @derryb said:
    You "have to" pay taxes on any capital gain

    I've always loved cash but now that I own my own businesses, I really love cash.

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    Sandman70gtSandman70gt Posts: 979 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have a little crypto knowledge to share. My position on crypto has changed in the last few months as I have better educated myself.
    I have 125% gain with ethereum and litecoin in 2 months.
    I am on paypal. They do have weekly and yearly limits. They do charge a small fee. Capitol gains come into play upon selling on any of the platforms, so pick one and stay there. On coinbase you can exchange one crypto for another with no fee. Thats not how paypal is currently set up.
    Anything you want to do with your crypto on paypal must be sold back to fiat dollars and the capital gains come into play.
    Another play I ran across on the net is meet kevin https://youtu.be/iWUvocJ6Rig
    This interests me alot and I am still doing some more DD on it.
    BlockFi can hold your crypto, charges no fee to buy or sell and pays me an interest that I cant get anywhere else.

    So much to learn, but this is the future, think of the blockchain technology as internet 2.0. You are investing in the technology.
    The crypto currency is not a currency at all, it is the investment in that technology.

    Get some skin in the game as this here and now is the beginning of something huge!!

    Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone

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    AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,537 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's my opinion that Crypto ETFs are like many companies that will go under when they can't produce the crypto on demand. I'm wary of someone holding my money with a promise that they have the goods to sell when I go to cash in. Haven't some of the precious metals dealers bitten the dust as this business model is a scam?

    How do you know they have the goods to hold for you?

    bob :)

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
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    jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,076 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I did a little trading cryptos in the last runnup a few years ago. I used gdax to buy and sell. Sold enough to re-coop my initian investment, then just held the profits. When paypal allowed buying and selling, I bout just a little bit more of Bitcoin, litecoin, and Ethereum. Don't invest more than you are willing to lose. But... mine has done well, lol.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @nags said:
    I thought (could very well be wrong), with paypal, robinhood... that you don't personally own the cypto. While there are probably some advantage of doing so, it may be better to have your own wallet and personally own the investment. Just don't lose the password.

    trading cryptos on a platform like PP and RH is like trading precious metals using ETFs. Buying and selling is the push of a button. A digital wallet requires much more time and effort. Think of the platforms as paper cryptos. After all they are derivatives as are ETFs. Platforms bring ease and quickness to crypto trading just as ETFs did for physical metals.

    Coinbase isn't any different. You can trade between currencies or cash to crypto at the push of a button. There's probably a delay for one of the less popular cryptos, but there's nothing complicated about it.

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    CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Sandman70gt said:
    The crypto currency is not a currency at all, it is the investment in that technology.

    No, crytocurrency IS currency. If you want (instead) to invest in the hardware and software that supports the currencies, there are stocks and other vehicles with which to do so.

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    Sandman70gtSandman70gt Posts: 979 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CoinJunkie - not to be agruementive, becoming a miner of any crypto is actual investment in the hardware of the technology,
    But its a bit like splitting hairs here.
    Its any investment in a vessel that although volatile is going up.

    Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone

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    CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Sandman70gt said:
    @CoinJunkie - not to be agruementive, becoming a miner of any crypto is actual investment in the hardware of the technology,
    But its a bit like splitting hairs here.
    Its any investment in a vessel that although volatile is going up.

    You stated: The crypto currency is not a currency at all

    That is simply incorrect.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CoinJunkie said:

    @Sandman70gt said:
    The crypto currency is not a currency at all, it is the investment in that technology.

    No, crytocurrency IS currency. If you want (instead) to invest in the hardware and software that supports the currencies, there are stocks and other vehicles with which to do so.

    Yes, there are a number of blockchain ETFs you could invest in if you want to invest in the technology. Those have boomed in the last year also.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Sandman70gt said:
    @CoinJunkie - not to be agruementive, becoming a miner of any crypto is actual investment in the hardware of the technology,
    But its a bit like splitting hairs here.
    Its any investment in a vessel that although volatile is going up.

    You don't become a miner (necessarily) to obtain crypto. You can exchange dollars (or Euros or whatever) directly for crypto in the same way that you would exchange dollars for Euros. You can also spend crypto directly in some cases for goods. For example, you could buy coins though Apmex and pay directly in Bitcoin.

    Now, whether it is "currency" or a "medium of exchange" or something else is a really semantic argument. But it is NOT technology as there is no more technology involved than in your checking account.

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    derrybderryb Posts: 36,203 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021 12:53PM

    While bitcoin is accepted as a medium of exchange by a very limited number of parties it is for from meeting the definition of a currency.

    If you give me a bag of potatoes to mow your lawn, the potatoes did not become a currency. They were simply a medium of exchange. Mediums of exchange do not qualify as a currency until they meet the definition above. Calling cryptos "cryptocurrency" does not make them currency. Digital currency has not yet become a currency.

    Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    While bitcoin is accepted as a medium of exchange by a very limited number of parties it is for from meeting the definition of a currency.

    If you give me a bag of potatoes to mow your lawn, the potatoes did not become a currency. They were simply a medium of exchange. Mediums of exchange do not qualify as a currency until they meet the definition above. Calling cryptos "cryptocurrency" does not make them currency. Digital currency has not yet become a currency.

    I stand by the fact that this is an unnecessarily semantic argument that will only obscure the point. Here's Merriam-Webster's definition of "currency" which makes no distinction between medium of exchange, article of barter and currency:

    Definition of currency
    1a: circulation as a medium of exchange
    b: general use, acceptance, or prevalence
    a story gaining currency
    c: the quality or state of being current : CURRENTNESS
    needed to check the accuracy and currency of the information
    2a: something (such as coins, treasury notes, and banknotes) that is in circulation as a medium of exchange
    b: paper money in circulation
    c: a common article for bartering
    Furs were once used as currency.
    d: a medium of verbal or intellectual expression
    … neither side possessed any currency but clichés …

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    derrybderryb Posts: 36,203 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @derryb said:
    While bitcoin is accepted as a medium of exchange by a very limited number of parties it is for from meeting the definition of a currency.

    If you give me a bag of potatoes to mow your lawn, the potatoes did not become a currency. They were simply a medium of exchange. Mediums of exchange do not qualify as a currency until they meet the definition above. Calling cryptos "cryptocurrency" does not make them currency. Digital currency has not yet become a currency.

    I stand by the fact that this is an unnecessarily semantic argument that will only obscure the point. Here's Merriam-Webster's definition of "currency" which makes no distinction between medium of exchange, article of barter and currency:

    Definition of currency
    1a: circulation as a medium of exchange
    b: general use, acceptance, or prevalence
    a story gaining currency
    c: the quality or state of being current : CURRENTNESS
    needed to check the accuracy and currency of the information
    2a: something (such as coins, treasury notes, and banknotes) that is in circulation as a medium of exchange
    b: paper money in circulation
    c: a common article for bartering
    Furs were once used as currency.
    d: a medium of verbal or intellectual expression
    … neither side possessed any currency but clichés …

    Not a currency. . .yet.

    Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @derryb said:
    While bitcoin is accepted as a medium of exchange by a very limited number of parties it is for from meeting the definition of a currency.

    If you give me a bag of potatoes to mow your lawn, the potatoes did not become a currency. They were simply a medium of exchange. Mediums of exchange do not qualify as a currency until they meet the definition above. Calling cryptos "cryptocurrency" does not make them currency. Digital currency has not yet become a currency.

    I stand by the fact that this is an unnecessarily semantic argument that will only obscure the point. Here's Merriam-Webster's definition of "currency" which makes no distinction between medium of exchange, article of barter and currency:

    Definition of currency
    1a: circulation as a medium of exchange
    b: general use, acceptance, or prevalence
    a story gaining currency
    c: the quality or state of being current : CURRENTNESS
    needed to check the accuracy and currency of the information
    2a: something (such as coins, treasury notes, and banknotes) that is in circulation as a medium of exchange
    b: paper money in circulation
    c: a common article for bartering
    Furs were once used as currency.
    d: a medium of verbal or intellectual expression
    … neither side possessed any currency but clichés …

    Not a currency. . .yet.

    Given the billions of dollars floating around, you would really have to have a narrow definition of "general" or "common".

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    Morpheus1967Morpheus1967 Posts: 173 ✭✭✭

    Use Coinbase Pro instead of Coinbase. The fees are only .5%.

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    CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    While bitcoin is accepted as a medium of exchange by a very limited number of parties it is for from meeting the definition of a currency.

    If you give me a bag of potatoes to mow your lawn, the potatoes did not become a currency. They were simply a medium of exchange. Mediums of exchange do not qualify as a currency until they meet the definition above. Calling cryptos "cryptocurrency" does not make them currency. Digital currency has not yet become a currency.

    Your posted definition of currency is from a time when sovereign governments were the only entities that issued such. It is obsolete.

    In your example, potatoes are not a "medium of exchange". They are a commodity that was directly exchanged for labor. By your definition, everything in the known world would be a potential "medium of exchange", which is clearly silly. Furthermore, if you want to base your definition of currency on the level of acceptance of an entity, what is the threshold?

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    Sandman70gtSandman70gt Posts: 979 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree this is a semantic argument.

    This I do know, blockchain is and will be used in millions of ways.
    It has only begun and I for one am buying in.

    I previously had stated in a post a few years ago that I could not believe people were selling gold to buy bitcoin. Wish I would have. :(

    Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone

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    derrybderryb Posts: 36,203 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021 3:16PM

    @CoinJunkie said:

    Your posted definition of currency is from a time when sovereign governments were the only entities that issued such. It is obsolete.

    Sovereign governments continue to be the only entities that issue currency. Call it what you wish, but anything else used to satisfy a debt is not currency. I just traded some ASEs for an AGE. Neither meets the definition of currency.

    Unless of course, the cancel culture is now outlawing dictionaries.

    Currency?

    Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar

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    derrybderryb Posts: 36,203 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AUandAG said:
    It's my opinion that Crypto ETFs are like many companies that will go under when they can't produce the crypto on demand. I'm wary of someone holding my money with a promise that they have the goods to sell when I go to cash in. Haven't some of the precious metals dealers bitten the dust as this business model is a scam?

    How do you know they have the goods to hold for you?

    bob :)

    For the record there are no crypto ETFs, the SEC to date has approved none. Other than owning a digital wallet cryptos can be traded like an ETF on various platform identified above.

    You never really know if any of the platforms have the goods they are holding for you. And without SEC oversight with cryptos, counter party risk is high. It is imperative to stay abreast not only what you hold but also with who is holding it. You want to be near a chair when/if the music stops. To do this you need to be listening to the music.

    Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar

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    ms71ms71 Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So if you buy bitcoin then spend it in increments, wouldn't each transaction technically trigger a tax liability based on price paid and price realized for the bitcoin in each transaction?

    Successful BST transactions: EagleEye, Christos, Proofmorgan,
    Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins

    Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.

    My mind reader refuses to charge me....
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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ms71 said:
    So if you buy bitcoin then spend it in increments, wouldn't each transaction technically trigger a tax liability based on price paid and price realized for the bitcoin in each transaction?

    That's a great question and one that I've wondered about. I mean it is easy enough to account for using your average cost basis, but if you have $50,000 in bitcoin and spend it $25 at a time, it's going to be a lot of accounting. LOL.

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    ms71ms71 Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yup, especially if you not only spend, but also buy more along the way. I would have to think that the IRS will , at some point, require reporting on it.

    Successful BST transactions: EagleEye, Christos, Proofmorgan,
    Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins

    Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.

    My mind reader refuses to charge me....
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    derrybderryb Posts: 36,203 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021 4:47PM

    @ms71 said:
    So if you buy bitcoin then spend it in increments, wouldn't each transaction technically trigger a tax liability based on price paid and price realized for the bitcoin in each transaction?

    yes, but this would only apply to transactions where actual bitcoin (in wallet form) was used. Each time it is spent a current dollar value of the fractional amount of bitcoin spent would have to be recorded to aid in computing accurate capital gains/losses at tax time.

    The derivative forms of crypto that are traded on the platforms (RH, PP, etc.) are always bought with dollars and sold for dollars making capital gains/losses calculations and tax reporting no different than those for stock or bonds. The easiest way to profit (or lose) with cryptos is to avoid the complications of owning actual bitcoin and sticking with the many available derivatives that the platforms offer.

    Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar

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    CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021 5:00PM

    @derryb said:

    @CoinJunkie said:

    Your posted definition of currency is from a time when sovereign governments were the only entities that issued such. It is obsolete.

    Sovereign governments continue to be the only entities that issue currency. Call it what you wish, but anything else used to satisfy a debt is not currency. I just traded some ASEs for an AGE. Neither meets the definition of currency.

    Both ASEs and AGEs are in fact legal tender, and hence currency. The fact that no one spends them at face value doesn't change that fact. But your logic is fallacious in any case.

    Unless of course, the cancel culture is now outlawing dictionaries.

    Speaking of dictionaries, you might observe that the word cryptocurrency contains the word currency. May I sell you another clue? I accept Bitcoin!

    Currency?

    Prosecutor of Mickey Mouse argument:

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    derrybderryb Posts: 36,203 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CoinJunkie said:

    Speaking of dictionaries, you might observe that the word cryptocurrency contains the word currency.

    Does that mean cornbread is made from bread?

    Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar

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