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Karl Goetz Mini Medals?

Recently, I came across a Russian ebay vendor who had some tokens that interested me. They arrived without incident within 3 weeks. I was interested in the depictions, so I did not look closely at any possible artist. I was surprised to discover that two of them were Karl Goetz designs. The first one, I really like, at 34mm and would go for a larger example, if available, at a reasonable price. I like the depiction of the Santa Maria. Others may like the depiction of what became the airship USS Los Angeles. Kienast 321.
The second one was part of a three item lot, which I had purchased because of Schwegerle's depiction of a horse, for the 500th anniversary of horse racing, in Germany or Munich. The Goetz medal, about 40mm, turns out to be the design of Kienast 581. This medal commemorates the appearance of constellations and planets marking Charlemagne and Johannes Kepler. Much to my shock, it also commemorates AH in 1941. There also is a stylized symbol. Goetz had no love for this individual and his real feelings are shown on the obverse, where Luftwaffe bombers are setting the world on fire.
I took a closer look at the other two medals in the lot. One is an uninspiring shooting medal from Reutlingen, 1936. The racing anniversary, also from 1936, slightly modifies the Munich coat of arms, surmounting it with Reich's eagle logo.
Feh.

Honors flysis Income beezis Onches nobis Inob keesis

DPOTD

Comments

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting find. Perhaps @cacheman could shed some light on these?

  • cachemancacheman Posts: 3,111 ✭✭✭

    Sorry harasha but these are current, modern fakes. Over the past three or four years there has been a huge amount of copies coming out of China and Russia. Thankfully they are creating these from the poor images in the Kienast books. Looks to me like they are being scanned and then poorly cast or struck. So far they have all been the wrong diameter, weight, and metal composition. Real Goetz medals in silver will also have the Munich mint edge-stamp for authentication. If you paid more than a couple bucks I would ask for my money back.

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,623 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ouch! Buzz kill big time. Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Questions:

    Do real examples of these medals exist or are these fantasies?

    If they are real, how is it that any medal with a negative theme regarding AH and his party could have been produced in 1941 Germany?

    All glory is fleeting.
  • harashaharasha Posts: 3,079 ✭✭✭✭✭

    $6 each, and I had not realized that they were Goetz medals, at purchase. No loss for me; I got what I wanted and what I paid for. I will, however, keep an eye out for the genuine Kienast 321!

    Honors flysis Income beezis Onches nobis Inob keesis

    DPOTD
  • harashaharasha Posts: 3,079 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021 2:30PM

    Actual medals do exist, but not for $6!
    Goetz was very subtle. The reverse of K-581 can be said to compare AH to Charlemagne and Johannes Kepler. It is the obverse which makes the negative point; bombers setting the globe afire.
    see https://karlgoetz.com/ImageDetail.aspx?idImage=270

    Honors flysis Income beezis Onches nobis Inob keesis

    DPOTD
  • numismagramnumismagram Posts: 145 ✭✭✭

    There are unfortunately tons of fakes of Goetz types on ebay right now, though their generally low price (under $10) and very poor design rendition (everything is mushy and undefined) is a quick giveaway. Here is an authentic version of type 321 that I had a year or two ago for comparison. All the various design elements are much sharper and defined. Also, as mentioned, the silver types should all have the edge stamping.

    https://www.numismagram.com/product-page/100599

    Jeremy Bostwick

    For exceptional works of medallic art, check out our current inventory at Numismagram!

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