Sorry Tom. You’re not even close to Wayne as the GOAT.
Goldenage
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When Wayne retired in 1999, he held or shared 61 NHL records. 22 years later he still holds 60 of those. His 2857 career points are 936 ahead of the 2nd place Jagr.
Chew on this one. If you subtract every goal from Gretzky’s NHL career, he still finishes with more career points than Jagr.
Jagr had 1921 career points. Gretzky 1963 career assists.
As of now Brady is 2nd all time in completions and passing yards to Drew Brees.
Brady is 7th all time in passer rating.
Gretzky is so far ahead of Brady that you need the Hubble to find him.
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But what's the point in comparing football to hockey?
Statistically speaking, Wayne is the GOAT of all four major sports.
No player in any of the four major sports holds records like him.
Is this a yoga class thread? Cause that's quite a stretch.
GOAT VS GOAT is once again a hot topic in the sports world after Brady's seventh ring.
I feel comfortable with him as the NFL GOAT. Sport vs sport debates could be endless, and you can extrapolate out to many discussions. Internationally, combined with individual sports, there have been many greats.
But if this thread was going to be about the greatest goat in the four US major sports, that could be done, but then you still have debate within each sports potentially.
“Sorry Tom. You’re not even close to Wayne as the GOAT“
That’s not fair,Wayne Brady doesn’t even play football.
Eric
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“Sorry Tom. You’re not even close to Wayne as the GOAT“
I think John Wayne was the GOAT of western movie actors.
Selleck had a few good westerns but nowhere near the Duke's class.
'The Searchers' is considered by many to be the best western movie of all time.
Statistically speaking there is no player in any of the four major sports who dominates the record book and leads in the major statistical areas like Gretzky.
Like a great philosopher of our time once said, “case closed.”
I definitely remember hearing of a philosopher say just that, but I cannot recall his name. Maybe it was just a dream...🤔
As for Gretzky, i can't have that debate based on my current knowledge. I have read that opinion for years going way back. And I saw a couple of articles during the lead up to this past SB stating the same thing. But I don't feel like I have a fully formed idea of how to compare cross-sport.
Hockey is the sport I know the least of the major four. I know that Gretzky's dominance in the record books seems to lap any dominance if other potential goats, so I get this argument.
Questions I have that I'd love to read answers to....is there much debate amongst NHL fans regarding Gretzky's goat status? I seem to recall reading enough about this to know that there is some.
No one will ever be as dominate as Gretzky no one. It's insane his level of dominance. Almost a 3000 point career and 61 NHL records. Next in line is Jarg not even 2000 points. Most players are happy with 1000 points as a full career. Some may reach close to 1500 points now with the current goalie equipment but never 3000 points. He had 2857 regular season points to be precise.
Hey Bill Russell won 11 NBA championships and Jordan is considered the best in that sport and Jordan did not dominate like Gretzky if he did he would have average 50 points per game his whole career not 30 like he ended with.
I have followed sports for 30 years and have over 100 sports books in all major sports. Gretzky is one of a kind next comes Babe Ruth. Or Babe Ruth ending his career with 1100 to 1200 home runs instead of 714 and 4000 career hits instead of not reaching 3000.
The only Babe Ruth analogy is to take away all of Ruth’s lifetime HR’s and he still leads in lifetime OPS+.
You take away Gretzky’s lifetime 802 goals and he still is the all time NHL scoring leader.
Sorry Babe. Please sit down behind the great one.
Funny thing is..............Wayne’s lifetime points per game is just ahead of Mario.
Bobby Orrs lifetime points per game is much more than the #2 lifetime defenseman Paul Coffey. Plus, Coffey played lots of power play time with both Gretzky AND Lemieux.
Orrs ppg dominance for his position over #2 Coffey is much greater than Wayne’s ppg dominance over #2 Lemieux.
I just did a bit of a dive into the NHL GOAT debate. I'm sure there is an old thread to bump. But maybe this should transition into that. I was just texting back and forth with my go to hockey guy. I asked who is considered the NHL goat and for his opinions. He said that most say Gretzky, some argue for Orr. But he says Lemieux.
I then searched for Lemieux GOAT articles. They seem to say that he accomplished enough , even with all the missed time, to not be disqualified, and that he is actually the GOAT. I also came across some Orr articles.
I too put Mario and Wayne on the same level. Their points per game are somewhat equal.
Orrs points per game is well ahead of Coffey, and Orrs career plus/minus season average is just sick.
Bobby Orr dominated in the defensive and offensive zone.
Bobby Clarke said Bobby Orr was easily the greatest player at the 1978 Canad Cup, and he couldn’t even get out of bed in the morning. He played the whole tournament on one leg.
That aside, Orr is my vote as the best.
Is Gretzky the only player to have his number retired league-wide in the NHL, MLB, NFL and NBA? I think so, but not sure.
I know that his number is retired in the nhl. Not sure about the other sports.
All these numbers should be retired in the nhl. 99.....66.....9......4
Didn't Mario finish with a higher points per game average than Gretzky?
I believe Wayne had a pretty sharp decline in that area after he left the Oilers.
I admit I don't know much about hockey I'm sure if the game was simply about
pure scoring ability then Gretzky is the best. Nobody seems to mention defense I
guess hockey players aren't judged at all on their ability to help their goalie in
not allowing shots on goal?
Scotty Bowman chooses Gordie Howe for some of the reasons you state.
"I pick Gordie as my No. 1 all-time player. He played the longest. He was the toughest player of his era. He was the best offensive player, and defensively he was used in all situations. He could play center, right wing and defense. He could shoot right, and he could shoot left. If you could make a mold for a hockey player, it would be him. I never thought there was another player close to him." —Scotty Bowman
Howe was a top scorer and an enforcer rolled up into one player. Very strong and tough gentleman. League wide scoring was lower when Howe played, compared to when it opened up more during Gretzky's tenure. When you account for that, and that Howe spent more time defending(as opposed to having scoring as his only focus), the scoring isn't as far apart as the raw totals seem.
The coolest thing is that at age 51 Howe was still able to compete in the NHL, and faced off against a young Gretzky. Gretzky himself says Howe is the best ever, though that could be modesty since Howe was Gretzky's hero.
The link below sums up the eternal debate pretty well, and notes that Gretzky got benched one period for not playing defense.
Its not quite the slam dunk as it seems.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1054275-debate-wayne-gretzky-vs-gordie-howe
Wayne finished with a slightly higher ppg than Mario.
There's scoring goals, there's helping the goalie not allow goals, and there's being the goalie. More than any other sport, hockey does not lend itself to choosing a GOAT because comparing any other player to a goalie isn't really possible. Gretzky is a fine candidate for non-goalie GOAT but my vote would go to Orr. But it seems to me that if all the people making their case that because, you know, quarterbacks actually believed their own compelling arguments they would be pointing out how much more control over the game's outcome a goalie has than anyone else and that the overall GOAT simply has to be a goalie. And since that argument actually does apply to goalies I think they'd be right. I'm not going to attempt to opine on the pre-expansion goalies about whom I know nothing at all, or the next generation of goalies like Dryden about whom I know just a little more than nothing. The best goalies from the modern era that I saw play were Brodeur and Hasek, so if I had to pick a GOAT I'd pick one of them.
There’s a great deal of respect and admiration for Gordie from Wayne and others. Gordie, Wayne, and Mario are the top line of all time.
Oh, yes. The mutual respect is admirable from guys that could easily boast. Hats off to Gretzky for maintaining homage to the earlier generation. Gretzky could easily walk around and boast and it would be hard to deny him. Much respect for Gretzky. The Great one truly is great in more ways than one, and if he ended up as Hockey's rep on the Mt. Rushmore, can't go wrong with that selection.
You’d have to find a goalie whose save percentage blew away his peers.
Plus-minus is the best stat for which non-goalie was on the ice for goals for and goals against.
Bobby Orr absolutely blows away everyone in plus minus.
Bobby Orr is kind of the Sandy Koufax of hockey. It is hard to believe how young he was when he retired.
Most definitely the skaters can make the goalies job easier or harder. While it is true the goalie can prevent a team from losing to a high degree, but since he can't score, he can't win the game to any degree. He isn't directly in charge of other players like a QB is, nor does he define how the plays are run, choose who he will give the ball too or even call the plays himself based on what he says. His highlight comes when the defense doesn't do their job as well. The QB is the one who makes the highight by directing the entire play.
I will say that the goalie has less time to react to a shot than a QB, but then again, he is only looking at one thing while reacting(the puck). The QB has a second longer time to react, but he has to figure out which player is going to get the ball in that time, and do it while keeping his 'eye' on players trying to nail him into the ground.
QB has soo many things to run though his head in that two seconds, I'm sure goalies are glad they don't have to deal with all that quick thinking and decision making, where if you make the wrong choice, the blame all goes to you.
The closest thing to a QB for a single game impact is a pitcher in baseball. While the pitcher has 8 players around him, he still comprises at least 80% of the defense, and the pitchers who strike out a lot of hitters even more so. But they only play every five days, so their season impact is limited as a result.
Orr, Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux were all dominating players.
Hard to argue with Wayne's point totals, but of course he was not a "complete" player. Mario was better, when he wanted to be, for a much shorter period of time. I don't think he can be considered the GOAT.
Howe was amazing, he dominated the sport for 21 years, but scoring was way down then.
Then you look at Wayne winning 11 scoring titles and 16 times leading the league in assists, no one compares here even if we ignore the insane numbers and just focus on times leading the league.
Orr was a freak of nature and in my mind the guy who might be the perfect hockey player. Played 9 full seasons and was the best defensive player and top 3 in scoring 6 of those years.
For me I have to go with Wayne, his longevity does it.
Barry Bonds is the GOAT
He holds the most treasured records in sports.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Why? That's not how this works.
He does, as he does in everything else. He's the GOAT defenseman, no question at all. I think he's the GOAT non-goalie, but there are other worthy candidates. But none of them were responsible for winning more games than a whole lot of goalies. It's just the nature of hockey.
The closest analogy is pitcher in baseball. In any given game, the pitcher has more effect on who wins or loses than anyone else. An NHL goalie who plays 60+ games is comparable in value to an MLB pitcher who started, and completed, 120+ games. If that's how baseball worked then the GOAT pitcher would not need to "blow away" his peers, because the GOAT candidates would all be pitchers.
Everybody knows that Babe Ruth is the GOAT in American professional team sports.
Wilt Chamberlain is up there, but doesn't have the team championships that the Babe has.
I agree with the pitcher example. If somehow someone could start even 80 games a yea(and pitch more than 5 innings)r, their value would be off the charts.
Goalies do play to a very high degree on defense effectiveness, but the skaters also play a high degree on defense. The skaters are the ones directing the plays, and theoretically, the goalie only comes into play when the skaters don't do their job as good as the opposing skaters. The nature of the game is controlling the puck.
If the goalie were the one directing the defensive plays and making all the key decisions, and also executing them, like a QB does for his half of the game, then his value would grow to the level of a QB.
The offense helps the defense as well. The longer the offense has control of the puck, the less effect the defense has. Kind of like in football. The offense that controls the clock is helping their defense.
The skaters can even pull a goalie and still manage for a time at least. Goalies of course are ultra important. Having a bad one does stick out like a sore thumb.
Well yes, but there is one goalie and there are 18 other skaters. The value of the 18 other skaters is much higher than the value of the one goalie, but the value of any one of those 18 skaters, even the best one, doesn't come close to the value of the goalie. It's also worth keeping in mind that the top scorers are never the ones with the highest defensive value - with the exception of Bobby Orr, the non-goalie GOAT. Gretzky and Lemieux (and Hull and so on), had virtually no defensive value.
To make an epic nerd analogy - and I'm not quite a big enough nerd to actually know the correct terminology - consider Harry Potter and that game they played on flying broomsticks. There were actually two games going on at the same time: the one that Harry (and one of is opponents) was playing going after that flying winged ball thing and the one everyone else was playing that was sort of like soccer with goalies, etc. If Harry (or his opponent) caught the flying winged ball thing then his team won - it made no difference what happened in the soccerish game. Sort of the same thing with hockey; if the goalie is good enough it makes almost no difference what anyone else on the ice does, his team is going to win. I saw it happen in 2000 when a mediocre at best Devils team won the Cup from my Stars because Brodeur was THAT good. And I almost saw it happen in 1999 when a Sabres team that aspired to be mediocre almost won because Hasek was THAT good (so was Belfour, so the better team won).
I've consulted with a sports expert who wishes to remain unanimous. He has taken personal favorites out of the equation as have I. After careful deliberation we have determined the greatest athletes in the major sports.
Baseball, Babe Ruth
Football, Jim Brown
Basketball, LeBron James
Hockey, Wayne Gretzky
My consultant has reminded me to let you know this is no longer debatable, therefore the case is closed.
Greatest of all is Babe Ruth
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Ralph
In my eyes, it's Mario all the way. He put up basically the numbers as Gretzky while playing much of his career in an era where they actually played defense, unlike Wayne's big years. As for Orr, he stood out because of his skating. He was well ahead of his peers in that respect, playing in an era where hardly anyone could skate. If he played today, he'd be required to play more defense and his standout skill - skating - would be somewhat neutered since pretty much every guy can skate.
Put another way, in any given era, which guy is most likely to lead the league in scoring? Mario.
Gotta give you props for the Harry Potter analogy. Having a little 'nerd' in oneself makes for a well rounded individual.
It was said that Harry would make a fair Beater too.
Good list and to expound if i may on what i think we agree is the GOAT's GOAT. Babe Ruth transcended MLB unlike any other athlete not only in MLB but the other professional team sports as well. I think transcending a sport is an important factor if you're gonna talk GOAT's GOAT.
Keep in mind it is said that Ruth actually saved MLB after the horrendous Black Sox scandal, and it's hard to argue with that. I don't see anyone else on the GOAT list who any sports fan in their right mind would say they "saved" their league.
What shouldn't be lost in the conversation is the charisma of Babe Ruth and how he promoted the game. I know from a reliable source who as a kid, he attended Philadelphia A's games when Ruth was playing for the Yankees. He said to me that he never saw Ruth refuse to sign an autograph. The proof? I've seen his autograph collection which is museum quality. Literally dozens of Babe Ruth autographs.
Ruth's amazing records and championships? No sense regurgitating that here which most of us already know.
Overall it's a very easy call that Babe Ruth is clearly the GOAT's GOAT.
Second is a bit tougher. I think it's Chamberlain for second, but Gretzky is not a bad choice.
Gretzky never won another championship after leaving Edmonton.
So?
I like what you’re saying, but if today’s game is a speed game, then Orr gets the vote.
He’s quicker than McDavid. Even Gretzky has made mention of the poor skates used in Orrs day. Those guys skated poorly for a reason.
The hockey experts have said that Orr and McDavid have the quickest feet all time. Not strides, but feet.
Mario was fast, and had that reach, so I have no problem with him being the greatest offensively.
But if you’re talking about the complete hockey player in every aspect of the game, then it’s easily Bobby Orr. His unequalled plus minus speaks to that. He was so dominant when he was on the ice. He shut down the other team while leading his team and the league in scoring. Wayne and Mario’s plus minus doesn’t even come close to Orr because they couldn’t play in the defensive zone like Orr.
The Kings didn’t have Coffey, Messier, and company.
...and those guys won after Gretzky left.
Just another example of why championships mean nothing in team sports, when discussing individual player ratings.
It does take everything to go your way to win a single championship. However, players that are the lead impact players on the team, and their team wins consistently every year in the regular season, is in the hunt for the title every year, and wins some titles(even if some are from things simply bouncing your way in a single game)...and they themselves also perform individually at an elite level...all enter into the equation.
I don't think someone like Jordan all of a sudden became better player from the offseason where he never won a title, to the next spring where he did....because he was clearly the lead dog on his team and his team was in the hunt the previous several years. They just had a tough road in their conference. Although, Jordan certainly did improve his game from his first couple seasons compared to the years he was in the hunt, which was in fact one of the reasons they went from being a good team, to being in the hunt every year, to eventually winning it all. His improved post game and improved outside shooting made him a different player from his first two years where it was his acrobats that dominated his game.
Yes and no. The 1964 Boston Bruins and 1984 Pittsburgh Penguins were pathetic.
The question becomes which player had more help to win championships. In my view Gretzky had the better players around him. Mario had the 2nd all time point leader in Jagr and Francis and Coffey.
Bobby Orr had no one, and if you look at Esposito stats before and after playing with Orr, you’ll see he was a middle of the road star without Bobby.
I am a big hockey guy and I agree that Mario scored at a rate equal to Wayne on a Point Per Game average, however Wayne played an extra 5 years and during his career, he played in 74 games every year while Mario played in 59 games per year. I ignored Mario's last two years.
I am going to agree Mario was a better "all around" hockey player, he was certainly better defensively when he put out the effort, but it's pretty close. Then I'm going to look at longevity and say Wayne wins. 5 years is a significant period of time.
IF Mario can stay on the ice. In his 20 years in the NHL Wayne led the league in scoring 11 times. In his 15 full years Mario led 6 times, so based on what they actually did, Wayne.
Same thing with Orr. He was only able to play 9 years. He was so much better than the other players it was amazing.
Howe has the longevity and was a better all around player, but not the offensive domination Wayne had.
Any of the 4 could be the Hockey GOAT, I'll vote Gretzky.
The most knowledgeable hockey guys inside the game and out, all say similar things about Orr. Really, it is only because he was done by age 26 as a full time player, that keeps him from clear cut path to the top of board. They say it about Howe too, like Bowman did. They know what wins the games Scotty Bowman knows what a team needs to win, and if he is saying Howe provides that more than any other player, or position, I'm going to tend to defer to him on that . It is the players like them who are in control of the puck and dictate both aspects of the game that win hockey games more than anything else. It actually isn't even comparable to football in any way,
I agree with just about everything you say, but plus/minus is a horrible way to compare hockey players.
How does a guy with no one around him go to the playoffs nearly every season and win the Cup twice and lose in the finals once?
Championships are a horrible way to determine an individual players greatness. Now you are breaking down their team mates abilities to see who was "better". To me that just muddies the water.
There's no way to actually determine who the Hockey GOAT beyond all doubt imo. To me it does boil down to Gretzky and Howe even though they might not have been the "best" players. Orr was unbelievable,,,,,,for 9 years.
How long a guy was able to play at a high level and how often he was in the games during that time means a LOT more to me than who he played with.
Howe has a LOT going for him. He certainly didn't need an extra guy on the roster to protect him. If you messed with him you got your a$$ kicked.........by him.
Pure talent, I give it to Orr. He was cheap shotted out of the league.
Why do you feel plus minus is a horrible way to compare players ?
I played hockey, and the guys who could control the puck, skate better, shoot accurately, and defend were the great ones.
We all remember how dominant Robinson, Savard, Gainey, Shutt and Lafluer were. They could skate, defend, and score.
The truth is Robinson’s career plus minus per season isn’t even close to Orr, and Larry played with amazing teams.
Bobby Orr was the team. In my view he is along with perhaps Wilt Chamberlain the only players who were so dominant that they elevate above everyone else.
Scotty Bowman talking about how Bobby Orr was lightning quick, and he skated well above his peers the way McDavid does.
https://www.tsn.ca/bowman-on-the-unstoppable-greatness-of-orr-1.586976
Ken Dryden also said how Orr put fear in him because of how fast he came at him.
Great article on the insights of Bowman and the impact the skaters have on the game over anyone else.
You played hockey and you don't know why +/- is a horrible way to rate a player?
In a nutshell, your number is controlled by the other players more than it is by you. A great player on a bad line, or with a poor goalie looks a lot worse than he really is. An average player on a good line will look a lot better than he really is.
Add this to how much time on the ice a guy plays and the meaningfulness of the number gets worse, as he's playing with even more different guys.
Orr simply didn't play long enough to be the GOAT in my mind. He certainly was the best of his time and it wasn't even close.
Gretzky was the most prolific scorer of the high scoring era and he did it for 20 years. was still leading the league in assists when he was 37 years old.
Are you really saying that Dallas Smith and Wayne Cashman has more of an impact on Orrs plus minus than Orr did ?
Are you saying that Orrs phenomenal career plus minus was so dominant because of Gerry Cheevers and Gilles Gilbert ?