@tradedollarnut said:
Brasher doubloons are cool, but a bit esoteric. There’s 7 of them around. There’s only one First silver dollar struck for the United States. To me, it’s priceless.
And I just turned down an offer in the $9M range.
Good to know. If you do sell, I hope it sells for over $10M. Over $11M would be great
@RedCopper said:
Without any doubt, this Brasher Dubloon is the most valuable United States coin that has been auctioned.
Zion’s - It is easily worth more than any plugged or unplugged 1794 dollar
Please don’t try to correct me. I know I am correct
The only United States coin worth more is the J 1776 Pattern
And it would bring $15,000,000 - $ 20,000,000 in my humble opinion
Looking at the headline again, as much as I love this coin, I don't think it's the World's Most Famous Coin. I imagine the 1933 Double Eagle may be more famous.
@tradedollarnut said:
Brasher doubloons are cool, but a bit esoteric. There’s 7 of them around. There’s only one First silver dollar struck for the United States. To me, it’s priceless.
The finest Brasher Doubloon, graded MS 65★ by Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC), sold for an astounding $9.36 million USD on Thursday to become the most expensive NGC-certified coin ever sold at auction, more than doubling the previous record. A second NGC-certified Brasher Doubloon, of a different type and graded NGC MS 61, sold moments later for $2.1 million.
The Brasher doubloon is really an amazing coin. Historically important as probably the first privately minted gold coin in the colonies (but not sponsored by a colony). However, the first 1794 dollar made as a presentation piece most likely for a newly formed federation of states based upon the dollar as our unit of currency still hits the sweet spot for me. It's really sort of irrelevant really. Both are now thought by the market to be the most valuable US coins extant.
@GoBust said:
The Brasher doubloon is really an amazing coin. Historically important as probably the first privately minted gold coin in the colonies (but not sponsored by a colony). However, the first 1794 dollar made as a presentation piece most likely for a newly formed federation of states based upon the dollar as our unit of currency still hits the sweet spot for me. It's really sort of irrelevant really. Both are now thought by the market to be the most valuable US coins extant.
Regarding historical importance, was this coin ever used for commerce?
There may be a coin or two that are more famous.
But the coin Raymond Chandler had Philip Marlowe chasing around was the Brasher Doubloon. Hard to top that for the cool factor.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
@Broadstruck said:
Using an Inflation Calculator spending $725K 42 years ago had a buying power of $2.8M today.
Looked at another way: $725k invested in a dividend reinvested S&P 500 fund would be worth $81.9 million today.
Is everything about return on investment? I think Donald Partrick found more enjoyment out of owning this coin for the rest of his life than investing the same amount of money into the stock market. He was successful and intelligent enough to know that this piece meant more than money. More than inflation, purchasing power, etc.
It was history in his hands, and now he is a part of that history, too.
No, everything is not about return on investment. But someone posted the inflation adjusted cost. It is worth looking at the opportunity costs.
The coin was not a good investment. That does not mean it is not worth owning for its enjoyment.
If you don't lose money on a coin, then it is a good investment.
That's silly. If you hold anything for forty years and break even on it, it was a terrible investment.
He didn't break even - it beat inflation by over $6,000,000.00!
@Broadstruck said:
Using an Inflation Calculator spending $725K 42 years ago had a buying power of $2.8M today.
Looked at another way: $725k invested in a dividend reinvested S&P 500 fund would be worth $81.9 million today.
Is everything about return on investment? I think Donald Partrick found more enjoyment out of owning this coin for the rest of his life than investing the same amount of money into the stock market. He was successful and intelligent enough to know that this piece meant more than money. More than inflation, purchasing power, etc.
It was history in his hands, and now he is a part of that history, too.
No, everything is not about return on investment. But someone posted the inflation adjusted cost. It is worth looking at the opportunity costs.
The coin was not a good investment. That does not mean it is not worth owning for its enjoyment.
If you don't lose money on a coin, then it is a good investment.
That's silly. If you hold anything for forty years and break even on it, it was a terrible investment.
He didn't break even - it beat inflation by over $6,000,000.00!
You said:
If you don't lose money on a coin, then it is a good investment.
Was not aware that the second specimen sold for such a significant discount. I realize that the other one was superior in every way...but this one was still nice!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Perhaps a relevant comparison coin is the unique EB on breast version (EF-45 or AU-50),
which sold for $7.395 m in a private transaction in December 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_coins
Although I am not completely convinced that a somewhat different location for the counterstamp constitutes a different type.
Similar is the 2007 Canada Big Maple Leaf - 100 kg.
About 5 of these were sold, but their bullion value was around $4 m in 2017, so they are not in close competition
for the world's most valuable coin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Maple_Leaf
@yosclimber said:
Perhaps a relevant comparison coin is the unique EB on breast version (EF-45),
which sold for $7.395 m in a private transaction in December 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_coins
Although I am not completely convinced that a somewhat different location for the counterstamp constitutes a different type.
@breakdown said:
There may be a coin or two that are more famous.
But the coin Raymond Chandler had Philip Marlowe chasing around was the Brasher Doubloon. Hard to top that for the cool factor.
How many people under 50 know who Raymond Chandler & Philip Marlowe are?
Word is there could be as many as 20 very wealthy collectors participating in these latest Heritage auctions.
When there use to be a few whales, now there are many more active bidders.
From my observations, these collectors love coins !
@yosclimber said:
Perhaps a relevant comparison coin is the unique EB on breast version (EF-45),
which sold for $7.395 m in a private transaction in December 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_coins
Although I am not completely convinced that a somewhat different location for the counterstamp constitutes a different type.
@tradedollarnut said:
Brasher doubloons are cool, but a bit esoteric. There’s 7 of them around. There’s only one First silver dollar struck for the United States. To me, it’s priceless.
And I just turned down an offer in the $9M range.
Exactly! The Brasher doubloons were not made by the U.S. Mint, or even someone commissioned by the Mint, and none of them bear an denomination. For that fact, the 1792 Half Dismes were commissioned and bear a denomination on the reverse, and are recognized as circulating coins. The doubloons may be famous, but all of them were struck during the time of regulated coinages - and so the value of those at that time would fluctuate with the price of gold.
Did the U.S. designate any coinage with the denomination of "doubloon"? No! Thomas Jefferson eloquently stated to Congress that the official unit of coinage should be the "Dollar." Even today, the U.S. Dollar is the most trusted unit of value around the world - and Bruce has the very first one!
@RedCopper said:
Without any doubt, this Brasher Dubloon is the most valuable United States coin that has been auctioned.
Zion’s - It is easily worth more than any plugged or unplugged 1794 dollar
Please don’t try to correct me. I know I am correct
The only United States coin worth more is the J 1776 Pattern
And it would bring $15,000,000 - $ 20,000,000 in my humble opinion
1849 Proof $20?
RedCopper’s comment was “The only United States coin worth more is the J 1776 Pattern”. He didn’t qualify it in any way.
There has been speculation and claims that more than one 1849 Proof $20 was struck. And J-1776 is supposedly in a trust and might not/won’t be available for sale during our lifetimes. So the comment about it could be equally moot (not “mute”).
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@RedCopper said:
Word is there could be as many as 20 very wealthy collectors participating in these latest Heritage auctions.
When there use to be a few whales, now there are many more active bidders.
From my observations, these collectors love coins !
Trade dollar nut - The Indian cents did phenomenal IMO considering the quality of the coins.
Of course the grade on the inert seemed to help
Word is the owner of the Penske Brasher Dubloon was offered a fat profit
and he has only owned it for a year
Magic Marc Feld - Everything eventually comes up for sale. Just ask tradedollarnut
It’s ridiculous to say pre 1792 coinage made in New York isn’t American coinage. Of course it’s American. It’s colonial America and is more important than anything Post 1791. Considering the coiners of the shillings in 1652, and afterwards were facing death if found to have made coinage outside England makes those even more important.
As far as An actual gold colonial coin , there really is no higher level of desirability possible for importance or rarity.
In terms of the 1804 10 restrike, which I’ve owned both gems , the brasher was always worth at least double and up to 10x.
To the buyer , congratulations
@RedCopper said:
Trade dollar nut - The Indian cents did phenomenal IMO considering the quality of the coins.
Of course the grade on the inert seemed to help
Word is the owner of the Penske Brasher Dubloon was offered a fat profit
and he has only owned it for a year
Magic Marc Feld - Everything eventually comes up for sale. Just ask tradedollarnut
Stuart, I don’t care a whole lot if you misspell my first name. However, since we’re talking coins, not cars and for the sake of accuracy, I think/hope you meant “Perschke, not “Penske”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Dwight_M said:
It’s ridiculous to say pre 1792 coinage made in New York isn’t American coinage. Of course it’s American. It’s colonial America and is more important than anything Post 1791. Considering the coiners of the shillings in 1652, and afterwards were facing death if found to have made coinage outside England makes those even more important.
As far as An actual gold colonial coin , there really is no higher level of desirability possible for importance or rarity.
In terms of the 1804 10 restrike, which I’ve owned both gems , the brasher was always worth at least double and up to 10x.
To the buyer , congratulations
The brasher is not coinage at all. It's medallic or a token. Coins need to have an issuing authority. Brasher did not have any, did he?
A medal commemorates something. A token is a memento or souvenir. The Brasher was coined as an American equivalent to the Spanish gold doubloon. It’s historical. It’s American. And it was meant to be used In Commerce. Which makes it a colonial coin. The redbook is chock full of coinage from he 1780s that were made of copper. And silver. Was the Nova set not coinage proposed by Jefferson ? It was. But this is gold and as such was of the highest value and importance in our earliest years.
It’s an amazing and great coin. Not a Federal issue but still great. I’ll take my dollar given the choice but can understand if others choose differently.
Is a wass molitor 20 a token ? A medal ? An Oregon 5? No. They are coins , made to circulate for commerce when coinage was scarce. Colonials are coins as well.
What’s neat about colonial coinage is that it’s pre federal coinage. It’s the roots of American coinage.
I don't know about this but Bill Swoger says the Brasher Doubloon is America's first legal tender coin according to Mark Ferguson:
Mark Ferguson wrote for CoinWeek:
During February, 1787 Brasher petitioned the New York State Assembly to produce copper coins for the state but was turned down, as were other petitioners, because the state decided not to mint copper coins. Subsequently, Brasher began producing gold doubloons, which became America’s first circulating gold coins. They carried a value of about $15 each and were struck to the same standard that was later adopted for U.S. gold coinage. Researcher Bill Swoger states that Brasher Doubloons were America’s first legal tender gold coins.
@Dwight_M said:
A medal commemorates something. A token is a memento or souvenir. The Brasher was coined as an American equivalent to the Spanish gold doubloon. It’s historical. It’s American. And it was meant to be used In Commerce. Which makes it a colonial coin. The redbook is chock full of coinage from he 1780s that were made of copper. And silver. Was the Nova set not coinage proposed by Jefferson ? It was. But this is gold and as such was of the highest value and importance in our earliest years.
Did the Brasher doubloon ever get used for commerce?
So, if I issue a silver piece and put a $1 value on it, have I created a coin? Are Dan Carr's creations coins or medals?
I won't argue that people frequently refer to colonials and some of the more famous private gold issues as "coins". However, I believe that to be a misnomer in many cases. A private issue with no issuing authority should be designated as a token, not a coin, should it not?
Why are they Civil War tokens and not Civil War cents? They were the same size and composition as U.S. small cents. Hard Times Coins or tokens?
Don't we need the language to be clear to avoid confusion, especially with modern issues.
Civil war tokens are more promotional than anything else.
Colonial coinage did circulate and brashers did circulate it seems.
You’re not answering my comment about territorial coinage seems to show you are determined to be right , regardless of the facts.
In this situation , it doesn’t really matter what you or I say, as the Brasher is clearly recognized as a colonial gold coin.
@Dwight_M said:
Civil war tokens are more promotional than anything else.
Colonial coinage did circulate and brashers did circulate it seems.
You’re not answering my comment about territorial coinage seems to show you are determined to be right , regardless of the facts.
In this situation , it doesn’t really matter what you or I say, as the Brasher is clearly recognized as a colonial gold coin.
Certainly colonial "coins" circulated, although I'm really not sure about the Brasher doubloon circulating. But I digress.
I wasn't avoiding your question about territorial coinage. In fact, I mentioned "private issue gold coins". I thought it was included in my response by extension. I completely agree that they are referred to as "coins" but I'm somewhat at a loss as to how to distinguish commercial tokens from "coins" if the issuing authority is irrelevant. To my mind, the issue cannot be based on circulation alone. Spanish milled dollars circulated at the same time as Brasher doubloons were made, does that make them federal coins?
I still think the issuing authority has to come into play in the designation of something as a "coin" otherwise it is not official money.
@Dwight_M said:
Civil war tokens are more promotional than anything else.
Colonial coinage did circulate and brashers did circulate it seems.
You’re not answering my comment about territorial coinage seems to show you are determined to be right , regardless of the facts.
In this situation , it doesn’t really matter what you or I say, as the Brasher is clearly recognized as a colonial gold coin.
Comments
Good to know. If you do sell, I hope it sells for over $10M. Over $11M would be great
Probably never for sale so a mute comment.
Looking at the headline again, as much as I love this coin, I don't think it's the World's Most Famous Coin. I imagine the 1933 Double Eagle may be more famous.
Poetic license.
1913 nickel also
That is really just $5 after taxes.
Here's the NGC authored CoinWeek article:
https://coinweek.com/auctions-news/ngc-certified-brasher-doubloon-realizes-a-record-9-36-million-at-partrick-sale/
The Brasher doubloon is really an amazing coin. Historically important as probably the first privately minted gold coin in the colonies (but not sponsored by a colony). However, the first 1794 dollar made as a presentation piece most likely for a newly formed federation of states based upon the dollar as our unit of currency still hits the sweet spot for me. It's really sort of irrelevant really. Both are now thought by the market to be the most valuable US coins extant.
Regarding historical importance, was this coin ever used for commerce?
There may be a coin or two that are more famous.
But the coin Raymond Chandler had Philip Marlowe chasing around was the Brasher Doubloon. Hard to top that for the cool factor.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
He didn't break even - it beat inflation by over $6,000,000.00!
You said:
If you don't lose money on a coin, then it is a good investment.
That's what I was responding to.
Was not aware that the second specimen sold for such a significant discount. I realize that the other one was superior in every way...but this one was still nice!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Perhaps a relevant comparison coin is the unique EB on breast version (EF-45 or AU-50),
which sold for $7.395 m in a private transaction in December 2011.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_coins
Although I am not completely convinced that a somewhat different location for the counterstamp constitutes a different type.
Another highly valuable coin is the 1613 1000 tola mohur minted under Emperor Jahangir. It's nearly 12 kg of gold.
Supposedly a $10 m offer for it was turned down in 1987, and it was bid to $8 m but did not reach the reserve.
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/international/story/19871215-rare-mughal-coins-put-up-for-auction-in-switzerland-indian-government-tries-to-get-back-799609-1987-12-15
https://www.mintageworld.com/coin/detail/5286/
I suppose a similar coin is the 2012 Austrialian Kangaroo 1 tonne gold coin, with bullion value around AUS$50 m.
But I don't think it has actually ever been sold.
http://www.perthmint.com/1-tonne-gold-coin.aspx
Similar is the 2007 Canada Big Maple Leaf - 100 kg.
About 5 of these were sold, but their bullion value was around $4 m in 2017, so they are not in close competition
for the world's most valuable coin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Maple_Leaf
Interesting.
Since the $10M mark was broken in 2013, the only 2 coins that have sold for above $5M are Brasher Doubloons.
How many people under 50 know who Raymond Chandler & Philip Marlowe are?
Word is there could be as many as 20 very wealthy collectors participating in these latest Heritage auctions.
When there use to be a few whales, now there are many more active bidders.
From my observations, these collectors love coins !
You forgot about the 1804 $10
Exactly! The Brasher doubloons were not made by the U.S. Mint, or even someone commissioned by the Mint, and none of them bear an denomination. For that fact, the 1792 Half Dismes were commissioned and bear a denomination on the reverse, and are recognized as circulating coins. The doubloons may be famous, but all of them were struck during the time of regulated coinages - and so the value of those at that time would fluctuate with the price of gold.
Did the U.S. designate any coinage with the denomination of "doubloon"? No! Thomas Jefferson eloquently stated to Congress that the official unit of coinage should be the "Dollar." Even today, the U.S. Dollar is the most trusted unit of value around the world - and Bruce has the very first one!
RedCopper’s comment was “The only United States coin worth more is the J 1776 Pattern”. He didn’t qualify it in any way.
There has been speculation and claims that more than one 1849 Proof $20 was struck. And J-1776 is supposedly in a trust and might not/won’t be available for sale during our lifetimes. So the comment about it could be equally moot (not “mute”).
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Apparently, copper ones not so much....
Trade dollar nut - The Indian cents did phenomenal IMO considering the quality of the coins.
Of course the grade on the inert seemed to help
Word is the owner of the Penske Brasher Dubloon was offered a fat profit
and he has only owned it for a year
Magic Marc Feld - Everything eventually comes up for sale. Just ask tradedollarnut
It’s ridiculous to say pre 1792 coinage made in New York isn’t American coinage. Of course it’s American. It’s colonial America and is more important than anything Post 1791. Considering the coiners of the shillings in 1652, and afterwards were facing death if found to have made coinage outside England makes those even more important.
As far as An actual gold colonial coin , there really is no higher level of desirability possible for importance or rarity.
In terms of the 1804 10 restrike, which I’ve owned both gems , the brasher was always worth at least double and up to 10x.
To the buyer , congratulations
Stuart, I don’t care a whole lot if you misspell my first name. However, since we’re talking coins, not cars and for the sake of accuracy, I think/hope you meant “Perschke, not “Penske”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The brasher is not coinage at all. It's medallic or a token. Coins need to have an issuing authority. Brasher did not have any, did he?
A medal commemorates something. A token is a memento or souvenir. The Brasher was coined as an American equivalent to the Spanish gold doubloon. It’s historical. It’s American. And it was meant to be used In Commerce. Which makes it a colonial coin. The redbook is chock full of coinage from he 1780s that were made of copper. And silver. Was the Nova set not coinage proposed by Jefferson ? It was. But this is gold and as such was of the highest value and importance in our earliest years.
It’s an amazing and great coin. Not a Federal issue but still great. I’ll take my dollar given the choice but can understand if others choose differently.
Is a wass molitor 20 a token ? A medal ? An Oregon 5? No. They are coins , made to circulate for commerce when coinage was scarce. Colonials are coins as well.
What’s neat about colonial coinage is that it’s pre federal coinage. It’s the roots of American coinage.
I don't know about this but Bill Swoger says the Brasher Doubloon is America's first legal tender coin according to Mark Ferguson:
https://coinweek.com/featured-news/ultimate-rarities-the-single-most-important-coin-in-american-numismatics/
Did the Brasher doubloon ever get used for commerce?
So, if I issue a silver piece and put a $1 value on it, have I created a coin? Are Dan Carr's creations coins or medals?
I won't argue that people frequently refer to colonials and some of the more famous private gold issues as "coins". However, I believe that to be a misnomer in many cases. A private issue with no issuing authority should be designated as a token, not a coin, should it not?
Why are they Civil War tokens and not Civil War cents? They were the same size and composition as U.S. small cents. Hard Times Coins or tokens?
Don't we need the language to be clear to avoid confusion, especially with modern issues.
Civil war tokens are more promotional than anything else.
Colonial coinage did circulate and brashers did circulate it seems.
You’re not answering my comment about territorial coinage seems to show you are determined to be right , regardless of the facts.
In this situation , it doesn’t really matter what you or I say, as the Brasher is clearly recognized as a colonial gold coin.
Certainly colonial "coins" circulated, although I'm really not sure about the Brasher doubloon circulating. But I digress.
I wasn't avoiding your question about territorial coinage. In fact, I mentioned "private issue gold coins". I thought it was included in my response by extension. I completely agree that they are referred to as "coins" but I'm somewhat at a loss as to how to distinguish commercial tokens from "coins" if the issuing authority is irrelevant. To my mind, the issue cannot be based on circulation alone. Spanish milled dollars circulated at the same time as Brasher doubloons were made, does that make them federal coins?
I still think the issuing authority has to come into play in the designation of something as a "coin" otherwise it is not official money.
http://cwtsociety.com/history.shtml
"non-government privately issued quasi-money metallic and composition devices"
Anyone else notice the braintrust at Heritage photographed the coin with Brasher's initials on the wing covered by the reverse?
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
@MidLifeCrisis should join the discussion!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Maybe it's the rare EB-less variant...