Will Bonds and Clemens get into the Hall of Fame?

doubledragon

Here's where the votes stand as of 1/14/2021

Public ballots: 136

Anonymous/Unverifiable ballots: 9

Percentage of ballots known: 36.6%

Curt Schilling - 74.5%
Barry Bonds - 73.8%
Roger Clemens - 73.1%
Scott Rolen - 64.8%
Todd Helton - 53.8%
Billy Wagner - 48.3%
Gary Sheffield - 47.6%
Andruw Jones - 41.4%
Omar Vizquel - 39.3%
Manny Ramirez - 35.9%
Jeff Kent - 28.3%
Sammy Sosa - 22.8%
Andy Pettitte - 15.9%
Bobby Abreu - 14.5%
Mark Buehrle - 9.0%
Torii Hunter - 4.8%
Tim Hudson - 4.1%
Aramis Ramirez - 0.7%
Shane Victorino - 0.0%
A.J. Burnett - 0.0%
Barry Zito - 0.0%
Nick Swisher - 0.0%
Dan Haren - 0.0%
Michael Cuddyer - 0.0%
LaTroy Hawkins - 0.0%

Brick

Schilling, Bonds, and Clemens should all be in.

perkdog

@Brick said:
Schilling, Bonds, and Clemens should all be in.

👍👍

craig44

It appears they will fall short if the numbers hold similar with years past. It is absolutely nuts to have a HOF without Clemens. Nuts.

LarkinCollector

@craig44 said:
It appears they will fall short if the numbers hold similar with years past.

Agree on this part. The later votes usually break against and lower Bonds/Clemens percentage.

JoeBanzai

@craig44 said:
It appears they will fall short if the numbers hold similar with years past. It is absolutely nuts to have a HOF without Clemens. Nuts.

He never failed a test, but it would seem a lot of voters must think he cheated.

"McNamee said he put used needles for steroid and HGH injections in a beer can in 2001 at Clemens’ apartment."

Not the best way to preserve evidence.

Here's an excerpt from Andy Pettitte's testimony regarding hearing Roger admit to using HGH;

“As you sit here today, you believe in your heart and mind that you very well might have misunderstood Mr. Clemens in 1999 or 2000?” asked one of Clemens’s defense lawyers, Michael Attanasio.

“Could have,” Pettitte said.

“It’s 50-50 that you might have heard it, might have misunderstood it?”

“That’s fair,” Pettitte replied.

If these two guys were the case against Clemens, it would seem to me he should not have ever been charged with anything.

Edited to add;

No for Bonds, he admitted using.

stevek

<<< Will Bonds and Clemens get into the Hall of Fame? >>>

Both of them will one day. It's not even debatable.

Maybe they'll live long enough to enjoy it. Because the horrendous amount of steroids they both used, certainly isn't conducive to a healthy long life.

LarkinCollector

Interesting to note, all three of the top vote getters are neutral to negative among returning voters, so any additional support is coming from new voters.

Bonds - Net 0
Clemens - Net -1
Schilling - Net -2

These three are picking up the most support among the returning voters.

Helton - Net +24
Andruw Jones/Rolen - Net +19

ernie11

I think Schilling will squeak in this time, but Bonds and Clemens will have to wait till year 10....or some Veterans committee vote.

craig44

@JoeBanzai said:

@craig44 said:
It appears they will fall short if the numbers hold similar with years past. It is absolutely nuts to have a HOF without Clemens. Nuts.

He never failed a test, but it would seem a lot of voters must think he cheated.

"McNamee said he put used needles for steroid and HGH injections in a beer can in 2001 at Clemens’ apartment."

Not the best way to preserve evidence.

Here's an excerpt from Andy Pettitte's testimony regarding hearing Roger admit to using HGH;

“As you sit here today, you believe in your heart and mind that you very well might have misunderstood Mr. Clemens in 1999 or 2000?” asked one of Clemens’s defense lawyers, Michael Attanasio.

“Could have,” Pettitte said.

“It’s 50-50 that you might have heard it, might have misunderstood it?”

“That’s fair,” Pettitte replied.

If these two guys were the case against Clemens, it would seem to me he should not have ever been charged with anything.

Edited to add;

No for Bonds, he admitted using.

You have it 100% correct here JoeBanzai. As far as Clemens case goes, there was not a case. those two guys were the best evidence the government could come up with. He absolutely should not have been charged, but they wanted a big name to attach to the scandal.

there are heaps of evidence that Clemens didn't use, including Dr. James Andrews deposition that in the 20 plus years Clemens was a patient of his, he saw absolutely no evidence of PED use either in his physical examinations or in all of his lab tests. I would think James Andrews would know a thing or two about the effects of PED use on an athlete. especially one he saw for that long.

the problem is that when a lie gets told long enough, it becomes the truth. this lie has been told for over a decade and public perception is determined. People did not/do not look at the evidence, they mimic what ESPN and Lester Munson said over a decade ago and it has become the truth. Sad really

Justacommeman

No matter what I think it looks like they will all come up short

m

keets

the problem is that when a lie gets told long enough, it becomes the truth.

that is a good summation. unfortunately, it sometimes becomes hard to believe anything these athletes tell us so the worst is what gets believed. that's not directed at Clemens per se, but it's the prevailing attitude that's taken place in MLB and all major Sports over the past half-century. MLB has always had an aura of cheating associated with it, the steroid scandal more or less just picked the scab off the wound so everyone could see it.

to use the metaphor of casting a wide net, the good gets caught up with the bad.

doubledragon

I think Curt Schilling will get in. If Curt Schilling doesn't get in, I'll eat my shirt!

JoeBanzai

@keets said:
the problem is that when a lie gets told long enough, it becomes the truth.

that is a good summation. unfortunately, it sometimes becomes hard to believe anything these athletes tell us so the worst is what gets believed. that's not directed at Clemens per se, but it's the prevailing attitude that's taken place in MLB and all major Sports over the past half-century. MLB has always had an aura of cheating associated with it, the steroid scandal more or less just picked the scab off the wound so everyone could see it.

to use the metaphor of casting a wide net, the good gets caught up with the bad.

I have just spent a couple of hours reading on Clemens and Bonds' steroid issues.

Clemens has only the failed test from the beer can. Don't know why that would even be brought up, it's laughable.

Barry looks to have about three failed tests that were actually properly done, BUT he didn't fail them initially because the testing wasn't good enough at the time. They went back and re-did the tests.

Apparently if you were very careful, you were never going to fail a test for steroids and MLB didn't test for HGH until 2013.

Plus the facts seem to point towards the players knowing ahead of time when they were going to get tested.

Kind of off topic but shouldn't Roger have won the Cy Young in 1990, 1992 and 2005? I don't think it should go to a reliever.

If Clemens did use, he was very careful not to "get big" or fail a test. Other than being fantastic when he was old, where's some actual evidence. Pettitte's accusation doesn't count, neither does "beer can guy's" .

Warren Spahn had a very good year at the age of 42.

thisistheshow

@doubledragon said:
I think Curt Schilling will get in. If Curt Schilling doesn't get in, I'll eat my shirt!

keets

if I was forced to make a decision I'd decide that most of the top players in the era being discussed are "dirty" whether they tested that way or not. actually, I'd go a step further and say that most of the players are dirty to some degree.

as I said earlier, MLB is a hotbed for cheating almost as though it's an integral part of the sport. it still goes on today with the evidence being the Houston trash can scandal. the thing wrong is that the Commissioner is a pussy with no power and the owners/players make too much money to risk upsetting things. their plan, going back to the Black Sox about 100 years, seems to be to huff-and-puff a little bit and hope we forget.

MLB has a history of scandal that will never stop.

Tabe

@JoeBanzai said:
Kind of off topic but shouldn't Roger have won the Cy Young in 1990, 1992 and 2005? I don't think it should go to a reliever.

1990 - without question. Welch had a great year and the voters bought into the 27 wins - but Clemens was a lot better.

1992 - Either Clemens or Mussina. At the time, 18-11 for your record wasn't going to win the Cy, unfortunately. Eck winning the CYA AND MVP that year was a joke. He wasn't even remotely close to deserving for either one.

2005 - I think the voters got this one right. Clemens had the low ERA but Carpenter threw 30 more innings, had more CGs, and more shutouts. Clemens was certainly worthy of the award though.

craig44

JoeBanzai you are absolutely correct about clemens deserving the Cy in 90,92 and 05. he was the best pitcher in 05, by some margin in my opinion. Carpenter did throw 30 more innings, buy Clemens was better in just about every rate stat.

on a side note, Randy Johnson should have won the 04 cy. that is still 2 additional cys clemens should have won. that would have given him 9 career.

BLUEJAYWAY

In ref. to the possibility that the 2 get in via the Vet. Comm. Just would not have the same impact/ring to it as if they were elected via the usually way. Somewhat lackluster comparatively speaking. Maybe this is how the nay voters will mete out their justice.

coolstanley

I think Bonds would already be in if he weren't such of a jerk during his playing days.

JoeBanzai

@craig44 said:
JoeBanzai you are absolutely correct about clemens deserving the Cy in 90,92 and 05. he was the best pitcher in 05, by some margin in my opinion. Carpenter did throw 30 more innings, buy Clemens was better in just about every rate stat.

on a side note, Randy Johnson should have won the 04 cy. that is still 2 additional cys clemens should have won. that would have given him 9 career.

I didn't take the time to look at his wins and see if he got any he "didn't deserve", that would have taken too much time ;-)

edited to add; I see what you mean in 2004 Johnson was better.

JoeBanzai

@coolstanley said:
I think Bonds would already be in if he weren't such of a jerk during his playing days.

EXACTLY, had he not been such a jerk and wanted to be "worshiped" like Sosa and McGwire for hitting home runs, he would now be regarded as one of the best players all-time by everyone. He wouldn't be the all time HR king though.

He made his decision. As my father used to say "Can't have your cake and eat it too".

Darin

I don't really care about the HOF anymore. I used to but with all the players
in there who are not all time greats of baseball it just doesn't matter.

stevek

I agree with the comments that any number of other players during the steroid era, were probably using steroids at least to some degree.

Before that, amphetamines were all the rage as Jim Bouton described in his book. Jim Bouton for a number of seasons was teammates with Roger Maris and Mickey Mantle.

Maris and Mantle were engaged in that famous 1961 home run race, in which Maris wound up breaking the single season HR record at that time.

I think it's morbidly interesting that Maris died at 51 years old and Mantle at 63 years old. Both of them dying at a young age, in my opinion, was likely the result of prolific amphetamine use when they were younger. That nasty chit including steroids, just eats away at the internal organs and wrecks havoc on the immune system, allowing all sorts of diseases such as cancer to take hold.

steel75

@Darin said:
I don't really care about the HOF anymore. I used to but with all the players
in there who are not all time greats of baseball it just doesn't matter.

I have been getting the same feeling. Slowly becoming the Hall Of Very Good.

JoeBanzai

@stevek said:

Before that, amphetamines were all the rage as Jim Bouton described in his book. Jim Bouton for a number of seasons was teammates with Roger Maris and Mickey Mantle.

Maris and Mantle were engaged in that famous 1961 home run race, in which Maris wound up breaking the single season HR record at that time.

Great read! Very entertaining and humorous book. Bouton does say that amphetamines sometimes hurt your performance,

I think it's morbidly interesting that Maris died at 51 years old and Mantle at 63 years old. Both of them dying at a young age, in my opinion, was likely the result of prolific amphetamine use when they were younger. That nasty chit including steroids, just eats away at the internal organs and wrecks havoc on the immune system, allowing all sorts of diseases such as cancer to take hold.

Mantle was also a boozer and Maris was a heavy smoker, or so I have heard. I am sure amphetamines didn't work in their favor either.

stevek

@JoeBanzai said:

@stevek said:

Before that, amphetamines were all the rage as Jim Bouton described in his book. Jim Bouton for a number of seasons was teammates with Roger Maris and Mickey Mantle.

Maris and Mantle were engaged in that famous 1961 home run race, in which Maris wound up breaking the single season HR record at that time.

Great read! Very entertaining and humorous book. Bouton does say that amphetamines sometimes hurt your performance,

I think it's morbidly interesting that Maris died at 51 years old and Mantle at 63 years old. Both of them dying at a young age, in my opinion, was likely the result of prolific amphetamine use when they were younger. That nasty chit including steroids, just eats away at the internal organs and wrecks havoc on the immune system, allowing all sorts of diseases such as cancer to take hold.

Mantle was also a boozer and Maris was a heavy smoker, or so I have heard. I am sure amphetamines didn't work in their favor either.

Some if not many don't comprehend how these dangerous substances work in the long term. Everyone understands an overdose. But some think that if they do only certain amounts and stop using it at some age, the body will heal up and return back to normal. Sorry to say the body will never return to completely normal, the damage is already done, and depending on the individual the negative consequences such as cancer will more than likely occur sooner or later.

It's sort of like a Faustian pact, trading years off their life span for sports fame, etc.

craig44

@stevek said:
I agree with the comments that any number of other players during the steroid era, were probably using steroids at least to some degree.

Before that, amphetamines were all the rage as Jim Bouton described in his book. Jim Bouton for a number of seasons was teammates with Roger Maris and Mickey Mantle.

Maris and Mantle were engaged in that famous 1961 home run race, in which Maris wound up breaking the single season HR record at that time.

I think it's morbidly interesting that Maris died at 51 years old and Mantle at 63 years old. Both of them dying at a young age, in my opinion, was likely the result of prolific amphetamine use when they were younger. That nasty chit including steroids, just eats away at the internal organs and wrecks havoc on the immune system, allowing all sorts of diseases such as cancer to take hold.

I think that is very possible, though by many accounts, willie mays was one of the biggest abusers of amphetamines and he will be 90 this year I think. i guess substances can effect every person differently.

stevek

@craig44 said:

@stevek said:
I agree with the comments that any number of other players during the steroid era, were probably using steroids at least to some degree.

Before that, amphetamines were all the rage as Jim Bouton described in his book. Jim Bouton for a number of seasons was teammates with Roger Maris and Mickey Mantle.

Maris and Mantle were engaged in that famous 1961 home run race, in which Maris wound up breaking the single season HR record at that time.

I think it's morbidly interesting that Maris died at 51 years old and Mantle at 63 years old. Both of them dying at a young age, in my opinion, was likely the result of prolific amphetamine use when they were younger. That nasty chit including steroids, just eats away at the internal organs and wrecks havoc on the immune system, allowing all sorts of diseases such as cancer to take hold.

I think that is very possible, though by many accounts, willie mays was one of the biggest abusers of amphetamines and he will be 90 this year I think. i guess substances can effect every person differently.

Yep, it's like the Willie Nelson example of cannabis being safe.

George Burns prolifically smoked cigars and lived to an old age.

The purveyors of these substances of course never point out the other examples.

coolstanley

@stevek said:

@craig44 said:

@stevek said:
I agree with the comments that any number of other players during the steroid era, were probably using steroids at least to some degree.

Before that, amphetamines were all the rage as Jim Bouton described in his book. Jim Bouton for a number of seasons was teammates with Roger Maris and Mickey Mantle.

Maris and Mantle were engaged in that famous 1961 home run race, in which Maris wound up breaking the single season HR record at that time.

I think it's morbidly interesting that Maris died at 51 years old and Mantle at 63 years old. Both of them dying at a young age, in my opinion, was likely the result of prolific amphetamine use when they were younger. That nasty chit including steroids, just eats away at the internal organs and wrecks havoc on the immune system, allowing all sorts of diseases such as cancer to take hold.

I think that is very possible, though by many accounts, willie mays was one of the biggest abusers of amphetamines and he will be 90 this year I think. i guess substances can effect every person differently.

Yep, it's like the Willie Nelson example of cannabis being safe.

George Burns prolifically smoked cigars and lived to an old age.

The purveyors of these substances of course never point out the other examples.

Mick Jagger and Keith Richards come to mind. Lots of booze and drugs in their younger years and still touring.

ernie11

@doubledragon said:
I think Curt Schilling will get in. If Curt Schilling doesn't get in, I'll eat my shirt!

I'd vote for Schilling in the HOF, easily. But I admit I'd be holding my nose while I did it.

GoDodgersFan

The Hall's motto is "Preserving History, Honoring Excellence, Connecting Generations." Bonds and Clemens were dominant and deserving entry to the MLB HOF. The PED era was a dark chapter in baseball and should be displayed in Cooperstown.

Both Bonds and Clemens will get it, but most likely years down the road.

fiveniner

Bonds and Clemens now.