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Show us yours. What Mexican 8 Reales from 1824 is rarer Hookneck or Upright Eagle?

KingOfMorganDollarKingOfMorganDollar Posts: 232 ✭✭✭
edited November 21, 2020 9:34AM in World & Ancient Coins Forum

Seems like there are plenty of the hookneck available for sale but Heritage only shows 3 ever sold of the Upright coin.

Comments

  • The Upright seems to sell for less money I don't get it.

  • KingOfMorganDollarKingOfMorganDollar Posts: 232 ✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2020 5:17PM

    Heritage comments on the Upright Eagle:

    Republic 8 Reales 1824 Mo-JM The first year of this enduring upright eagle design, which though often more overlooked than the popular hookneck, is in all actuality much scarcer. Though showing some characteristic rub on the eagle's breast, this does not appear to have translated to the cap, which preserves a pronounced and easy to read Libertad.

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The upright is rarer. But Hooknecks are by far more popular given the million varieties included in the book. People want to collect the varieties. It is like collecting Bust Cap halfs but more fun...

  • How rare is the upright is it rare in all grades?

  • KingOfMorganDollarKingOfMorganDollar Posts: 232 ✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2020 5:46PM

    I ask because I purchased the Upright NGC graded coin that was on ebay. I probably over paid the seller paid $660 in Heritage in 2019 and what to break even so cost me about 13% more due to Ebay and PayPal.

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well, how much depends on condition and eye appeal. But generally speaking, a nice upright 1824 is expensive. Now remember that the dealer is in this to make a living and it is impossible to make a business survive with less than 30% mark over purchase, if not close to 50%.

  • I paid $800 for the XF45 he had paid $660 in 2019 in Heritage.

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think it was a good price (irrespective of how much he or she paid) and looks like a solid coin for 45. You noticed the AU58 sold for over 2100, and the Foxlair that was cleaned, for 423. I'll say you did very well.

  • Thanks happy with it!! I appreciate your knowledge. I am a rookie when it comes to Mexican 8 Reales or any coins but I collect those. I will stick with them they for some reason attract me to them. And Mexican/Spanish gold coins as well.

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is a difficult coin and yours is a nice example. If you do not have it, you need to get a copy of Resplandores so you can get an idea on rarity of these coins. While the book could be updated, it is a great reference.

  • I will try and locate a copy. Do you have any links?

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 11,994 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is a pic of mine .

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bidask you posted an 1826, not 1824 :D

  • Post your 1824's if you have them I would like to see them.

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's what I am talking about @bidask

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 11,994 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Abuelo said:
    That's what I am talking about @bidask

    Thank you ... AU 50

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2020 5:23PM

    Dan, looks to be a nice, accurately graded coin. I would send it to PCGS for conservation, if it was mine. There seem to be spots of PVC hiding in the obv (eagle) legend.

  • Can they remove PVC and if they do would it still grade the same grade?

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes and it should unless the surfaces underneath have been affected.

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TwoKopeiki if it is PVC is a lot and I would be shocked if they graded it. Can it be tone?

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2020 7:37AM

    @Abuelo said:
    @TwoKopeiki if it is PVC is a lot and I would be shocked if they graded it. Can it be tone?

    Green toning by itself without any other color present? Very unlikely.

    Again, I could be wrong, but it looks like PVC to me. And if it is - its very easy to fix. But it should be addressed before putting the coin in long term storage, as the contamination will continue to spread.

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When you get to my age @TwoKopeiki you will understand my inability to see correctly :D you may be right. I thought was bluish...

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 11,994 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Uh oh....🤭

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 22,417 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bidask said:
    Uh oh....🤭

    Actually might be just run of the mill green crud, not PVC. And it looks completely stable at this point, unlikely to damage the coin. HOWEVER, the trivial tooling done to remove (probably most of) the green crud bothers me a little bit. I'd leave it alone and replace it with a better one when the opportunity presents itself.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • bidaskbidask Posts: 11,994 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Tooling ! 🙁..... uh oh

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • Sell it and buy another when you get the chance problem solved.

  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don’t see tooling. I see what looks like little fissures in the planchet under some of the green, but it does not look like intentional damage.

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  • bidaskbidask Posts: 11,994 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @scubafuel said:
    I don’t see tooling. I see what looks like little fissures in the planchet under some of the green, but it does not look like intentional damage.

    Hope so

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • jgennjgenn Posts: 561 ✭✭✭✭

    @KingOfMorganDollar said:
    The Upright seems to sell for less money I don't get it.

    Rarity alone does not equate to value for many series. High grade + eye appeal in the current environment is paramount. Since the Cap and Rays series is so vast I suspect many collectors just want to type collect so they will pay up for a hookneck and a nice pretty high grade upright eagle and be done with it.

  • KingOfMorganDollarKingOfMorganDollar Posts: 232 ✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2020 9:05AM

    .

  • @jgenn said:

    @KingOfMorganDollar said:
    The Upright seems to sell for less money I don't get it.

    Since the Cap and Rays series is so vast I suspect many collectors just want to type collect so they will pay up for a hookneck and a nice pretty high grade upright eagle and be done with it.

    As a standalone comparison, there are ABSOLUTELY far more 1824Mo hookneck 8R than 1824Mo upright eagle 8R out there. However, as a TYPE - Hooknecks are obviously many times rarer than upright eagles (and considered more "iconic").

    That said, they do make a nice complement to the hookneck for an 1824 set... and as stated, they are much rarer in absolute numbers. Along those lines, I'm guessing, there have been times when they go for rather strong money on eBay - though it seems somewhat inconsistent. As such, I'll accumulated a few when reasonably priced.

    @Abuelo said:
    I think it was a good price (irrespective of how much he or she paid) and looks like a solid coin for 45. You noticed the AU58 sold for over 2100, and the Foxlair that was cleaned, for 423. I'll say you did very well.

    This XF45 is in fact a stronger coin in terms of wear than that Foxlair piece (which is NO better than XF40 detail!!), and has nice surfaces. Not at all a bad purchase.

    The issue on this date, as with many early Mo C&R, is finding a decent strike on the eagle...

    I actually own the following piece, which despite the gouge, weak center, and kind of funky-as-made rim (similar to bidask's piece), is LEGIT AU wearwise and white with decent luster... for those who may prefer such a state:
    https://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/world-coins/mexico-republic-8-reales-1824-mo-jm-au-details-scratch-pcgs-/a/3064-33494.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

  • @scubafuel said:
    I don’t see tooling. I see what looks like little fissures in the planchet under some of the green, but it does not look like intentional damage.

    Agreed. That's planchet stress presenting as ghosting of the legend.

  • KingOfMorganDollarKingOfMorganDollar Posts: 232 ✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2020 2:17PM

    @realeswatcher said:

    @jgenn said:

    @KingOfMorganDollar said:
    The Upright seems to sell for less money I don't get it.

    Since the Cap and Rays series is so vast I suspect many collectors just want to type collect so they will pay up for a hookneck and a nice pretty high grade upright eagle and be done with it.

    As a standalone comparison, there are ABSOLUTELY far more 1824Mo hookneck 8R than 1824Mo upright eagle 8R out there. However, as a TYPE - Hooknecks are obviously many times rarer than upright eagles (and considered more "iconic").

    That said, they do make a nice complement to the hookneck for an 1824 set... and as stated, they are much rarer in absolute numbers. Along those lines, I'm guessing, there have been times when they go for rather strong money on eBay - though it seems somewhat inconsistent. As such, I'll accumulated a few when reasonably priced.

    @Abuelo said:
    I think it was a good price (irrespective of how much he or she paid) and looks like a solid coin for 45. You noticed the AU58 sold for over 2100, and the Foxlair that was cleaned, for 423. I'll say you did very well.

    This XF45 is in fact a stronger coin in terms of wear than that Foxlair piece (which is NO better than XF40 detail!!), and has nice surfaces. Not at all a bad purchase.

    The issue on this date, as with many early Mo C&R, is finding a decent strike on the eagle...

    I actually own the following piece, which despite the gouge, weak center, and kind of funky-as-made rim (similar to bidask's piece), is LEGIT AU wearwise and white with decent luster... for those who may prefer such a state:
    https://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/world-coins/mexico-republic-8-reales-1824-mo-jm-au-details-scratch-pcgs-/a/3064-33494.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

    So you are saying my coin is not a XF45? Did I over pay at $800?

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think you did just fine.

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