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1928 $50 and $100 gold notes--how would you value, (picture update)?

logger7logger7 Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited January 11, 2021 10:30AM in U.S. & World Currency Forum

A NY area dealer sent me obverse images of some gold notes, how would you grade and value these? I got some good opinions on these from one of the members here.



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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,936 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have no idea how to price them (I am completely out of touch with the US currency market) but suspect that the first two $100 notes have been soaked and pressed. Note the waviness in the notes. That usually happens when notes have not been allowed to fully dry before being removed from whatever is pressing them. Close examination would be required to see if the embossing that takes place during the production of the notes is still present. Soaking and pressing usually removes the embossing effect.

    All glory is fleeting.
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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree with this assessment. Notes looked messed with me too though the paper had some "freshness" to it. Strangely the dealer who tried to palm the notes off on me priced them all at over $1000 each, both $50 and $100 notes. The dealer told me that both he and the other dealer who offered on the notes from the original owner were "close" on their offers for the group.

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    AlexinPAAlexinPA Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wish I could help. I think your assessment is pretty much on. At those prices I'd want to see them in hand and graded.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Probably worth $600 or so each max.. If grading says VF30 washed, value is very limited.

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,936 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My opinoin:

    I have always differentiated between "washed and pressed"" and "soaked and pressed". When a note is washed with a detergent of some kind dirt and grime will be removed from any creases that have caused a break in the paper. This is usually very un-eye appealing. These notes should be heavily discounted.

    A note that is merely soaked and pressed will lose its embossing but will often lose only a bit of surface dirt and will actually look very presentable, especially if it only had soft "wallet" folds that did not break the paper's surface. These notes will still have good eye appeal and should be discounted much less than notes that have been washed.

    All glory is fleeting.
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    JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,812 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry I can't help ... but they look real nice.

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    synchrsynchr Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭

    You are wise to be wary of high end notes that are not certified.
    The top two $100's appear monkey'ed with.
    These are very alluring notes for profiteers to "improve" their selling price as the price jumps are attractive.

    I bought raw $100 Gold Cert from Heritage in 2002 who claimed it was Ch CU and wrote a sparkling review of the note. Submitting to grading returned PCGS 45 / PMG 40 (no EPQ/PPQ) .
    You are wise to be wary.

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    jtlee321jtlee321 Posts: 2,355 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry I can't contribute to what they are worth. But I thank you for starting this thread as I learned some very useful information. I've recently got bit by the currency bug during my return to coins. :)

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    synchrsynchr Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021 6:31AM
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    synchrsynchr Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021 11:16AM

    Does this reverse belong on a note graded Gem CU ?

    What are your opinions on notes grading Gem CU - should centering be dead-on for a note graded Gem CU 65 and up?

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's a good question, strict ANA and paper money grading of years past doesn't seem to hold too much these days--unless I do the submission!

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021 10:12AM

    Some more pictures:

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    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,681 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    synchrsynchr Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭

    The centering on those last two 50's is exceptionally nice and the $50 is the toughest denomination of the whole series

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I did not see any XFs here, it is tough to get an XF on better issues unless they have been carefully handled. Very tough to make money on these if I bought and resold; try to buy at $500-$700 each and sell for $100-$200 profit. Not worth getting graded unless you can get an EPQ or PPQ. Vf30-35 probably, no Q.

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    johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Love them gold notes

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    Endeavor1967Endeavor1967 Posts: 160 ✭✭✭

    You have a good chuck of change there. You should get them graded but beware once they are slabbed the price is set for you. I think the benefit of selling a raw note opens the buyers mind to the possibility of higher grades and if they are greedy they will expect huge returns. However if they come back with no epq that’s a game changer. Not to mention the invest you will need to pay for grading. If your keeping them they look better outside of a holder in MHO.
    Are you selling them?

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    Endeavor1967Endeavor1967 Posts: 160 ✭✭✭

    To me it’s a $3500 buy in deal. No downside. Anymore than that could be a real bummer.

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    synchrsynchr Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭

    Does the large right margin preclude 67PPQ for you or do you agree with the grading opinion?

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Endeavor1967 said:
    To me it’s a $3500 buy in deal. No downside. Anymore than that could be a real bummer.

    I offered them $3K; Greensheet indicates $50 golds are worth around $500-$600 as VFs, the 2 $100 golds worth maybe $800 each. No pinholes etc. but washed notes are a problem.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @synchr said:
    Does the large right margin preclude 67PPQ for you or do you agree with the grading opinion?


    I'd trust the grading service a lot more than perfectionist concepts of grade limiting issues, the note is super fresh and just superb.

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    synchrsynchr Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭

    No argument on freshness but lets bring this back into focus;
    Does that boardwalk right margin align with your concept of a 67PPQ?

    i.e A 67 is two full levels above Gem CU 65 PPQ and centering should be held to a high standard

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you did a rigorous analysis on notes in similar holders, you would find reasons to quibble with the high grades, but I'd take the judgment of the graders any day. Just compare the quality grading at PMG and PCGS currency with other service incarnations like CGA star. I had a better note that CGA had graded as a superb gem that I submitted to PCGS and they called it AU50; and they gave me all their reasons behind their grade, that it had been heavily pressed but faced up nicely. Without the option of calling grading to account with a "guarantee" or "warranty" submission, where is the incentive for them to grade honestly?

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    tomtomtomtomtomtomtomtom Posts: 535 ✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    If you did a rigorous analysis on notes in similar holders, you would find reasons to quibble with the high grades, but I'd take the judgment of the graders any day. Just compare the quality grading at PMG and PCGS currency with other service incarnations like CGA star. I had a better note that CGA had graded as a superb gem that I submitted to PCGS and they called it AU50; and they gave me all their reasons behind their grade, that it had been heavily pressed but faced up nicely. Without the option of calling grading to account with a "guarantee" or "warranty" submission, where is the incentive for them to grade honestly?

    PMG is at the present moment, the only show in town. PCGS is trying to compete with them. To keep PMG dominance, they seem to be giving many notes a bump up. If you were submitting a note, do you want the highest grade on it? The vast majority of notes submitted are from dealers. Dealers want the highest number on the notes that are submitted. I'm not saying that the grading is fixed for one person to another, but many agree that PMG numbers are a bit high for notes that don't have perfect centering. The note above getting a 67 for that centering, IMO, too high. We can justify it by saying that they make mistakes now and then. I would guess that someone who bought or had the above note graded will not be complaining. If someone wants it to cross, they probably will be disappointed. That's not what a guarantee is about. It's a difference of opinion.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I found PMG calling notes "VF" that some dealers called Fine. PCGS was more conservative. I don't know what the story is now. Right reason should determine grade, not an attempt to skew judgments for monetary advantages. PMG started putting "issues" on the reverse of their slabs to not kill value too much, I heard in response to many complaints.

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    synchrsynchr Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2021 1:05PM

    The OP's notes are nice original looking notes and tough series to come by,
    especially those $50 Gold Certificate notes - historically the toughest to find

    Apologies for straying waaay off topic (again) but grading services are simply an opinion. Although that opinion is used to monetize our collectibles, I have disagreed with TPG opinions such as PCGS Front-to-Back registration issues and PMG centering on 66PPQ/EPQ and higher grade notes.
    To me, a Gem CU note should have Gem centering and I remember that when shopping

    @tomtomtomtom said:

    @logger7 said:
    If you did a rigorous analysis on notes in similar holders, you would find reasons to quibble with the high grades, but I'd take the judgment of the graders any day. Just compare the quality grading at PMG and PCGS currency with other service incarnations like CGA star. I had a better note that CGA had graded as a superb gem that I submitted to PCGS and they called it AU50; and they gave me all their reasons behind their grade, that it had been heavily pressed but faced up nicely. Without the option of calling grading to account with a "guarantee" or "warranty" submission, where is the incentive for them to grade honestly?

    PMG is at the present moment, the only show in town. PCGS is trying to compete with them. To keep PMG dominance, they seem to be giving many notes a bump up. If you were submitting a note, do you want the highest grade on it? The vast majority of notes submitted are from dealers. Dealers want the highest number on the notes that are submitted. I'm not saying that the grading is fixed for one person to another, but many agree that PMG numbers are a bit high for notes that don't have perfect centering. The note above getting a 67 for that centering, IMO, too high. We can justify it by saying that they make mistakes now and then. I would guess that someone who bought or had the above note graded will not be complaining. If someone wants it to cross, they probably will be disappointed. That's not what a guarantee is about. It's a difference of opinion.

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    Serial_no_8Serial_no_8 Posts: 422 ✭✭✭

    I agree with the sentiment that TPG **is a subjective opinion & that it should lean more towards strict/conservative assessments rather then turning a blind eye to a banknote's issues. (TPG should not be rewarding dealers with high grades due to patronage). The two popular US based companies most debated have been subject of much criticism amongst collectors I know. Canadian collectors have been leery of **TPG notes since many grades seem ludicrously generous. Our coin grader, CCCS, seemed no better & CDN collectors posted their frustrations on our CPMF.

    Then came along Banknote Certification Services (BCS) which has been far more conservative & parsimonious with its UNC numbers. Rarely will one see a GEM UNC 66 "Original" & I have yet to see any 67-70. Some of us collectors (& dealers) still grumbled but I think a lot of collectors respect the grades coming from this TPG.

    I apologize if this goes way off topic but I thought I'd add my "2 cents." We've developed a sentiment & encourage other collectors to "judge/buy the note - not the holder."

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    Steve_in_TampaSteve_in_Tampa Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What’s your take on CEC @synchr ?


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    synchrsynchr Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2021 12:51PM

    Ouch!

    Now, now, you're just baiting me
    :)

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @synchr said:
    The OP's notes are nice original looking notes and tough series to come by,
    especially those $50 Gold Certificate notes - historically the toughest to find

    Apologies for straying waaay off topic (again) but grading services are simply an opinion. Although that opinion is used to monetize our collectibles, I have disagreed with TPG opinions such as PCGS Front-to-Back registration issues and PMG centering on 66PPQ/EPQ and higher grade notes.
    To me, a Gem CU note should have Gem centering and I remember that when shopping

    @tomtomtomtom said:

    @logger7 said:
    If you did a rigorous analysis on notes in similar holders, you would find reasons to quibble with the high grades, but I'd take the judgment of the graders any day. Just compare the quality grading at PMG and PCGS currency with other service incarnations like CGA star. I had a better note that CGA had graded as a superb gem that I submitted to PCGS and they called it AU50; and they gave me all their reasons behind their grade, that it had been heavily pressed but faced up nicely. Without the option of calling grading to account with a "guarantee" or "warranty" submission, where is the incentive for them to grade honestly?

    PMG is at the present moment, the only show in town. PCGS is trying to compete with them. To keep PMG dominance, they seem to be giving many notes a bump up. If you were submitting a note, do you want the highest grade on it? The vast majority of notes submitted are from dealers. Dealers want the highest number on the notes that are submitted. I'm not saying that the grading is fixed for one person to another, but many agree that PMG numbers are a bit high for notes that don't have perfect centering. The note above getting a 67 for that centering, IMO, too high. We can justify it by saying that they make mistakes now and then. I would guess that someone who bought or had the above note graded will not be complaining. If someone wants it to cross, they probably will be disappointed. That's not what a guarantee is about. It's a difference of opinion.

    Still only VF notes, and most are not original. Dealer seller does not know how to grade currency unfortunately. No XF or AU notes there. Just look at the grading definitions.

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