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The "cleaned" coin stigma, 1858 1C sm.. how to...

I realized there are plenty of topics regarding the ugly "cleaned" details designation on coins, just wish the graders would provide more details to it....any-who.
Attached is a coin I purchased earlier this year and had graded by PCGS. Like many others here I had high hopes for this one only to be knocked back a step...all good, it happens.....and then the but....

....but now I'd like to sell it. I've read various articles on selling cleaned/detailed coins but they often pertain to lower grades and can be vague at best when it comes to pricing for resale. I'm not saying I have a 5 digit coin but if it wasn't designated as cleaned it would go for a nice return I believe.
The question...How much would you consider it's value for resale ? I personally think it's in great condition at a minimum of MS64 to 66 less the "cleaned". You can reply here or via pm if you wish.

...also if chemically cleaned can that process be lessened, neutralized or eliminated somehow ?
TIA,

Ed G.

https://edgohio.ecrater.com/c/448903/collectable-coins

Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value.

  • Albert Einstein

Comments

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2020 7:09PM

    I don’t have the expertise to answer the part of your question regarding lessening, reducing or eliminating any prior chemical treatment, but:
    1. For pricing guidance, take a look at eBay and other sites to search for listings of coins similar to yours, but in TPG holders marked as “Details“.
    2. Kudos for having the ethical attitude of selling this as a “Detailed” coin, instead of cracking it out and trying to fool an innocent buyer. A person who is fooled is one who then gets a bad taste for our wonderful hobby. Yes, some call that “Tuition” for that person, but it’s still not right. BTW, there IS a healthy market for attractive coins like yours in “Detailed” holders for those looking to have attractive coins, but cannot afford a coin in that grade that straight grades.

    By the way, having the “Small” Letters type makes your coin more attractive. Additionally, the strike looks excellent too, so as noted above, the collector who wants one of these but can’t afford the $1,500 - $6,000 for one that straight grades in the grade of this coin, might prefer yours instead of a straight graded XF or AU coin. Be patient, this coin has MANY positive attributes!

    EDITED - I just checked eBay for a Detail 1858 Small Letters Flying Eagle, and the BEST listed are all AU, NOT anywhere near the higher grade of yours. None of those are graded by our host (certain/many people, right or wrong, prefer coins in PCGS holders). Those four are priced from $125 - $350. On this forum are many others with the expertise to give better guidance of the grade of this coin, as well as a suggestion as to its value.

    I hope you found this helpful.

    Best of luck.
    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
  • RexfordRexford Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭✭

    $300 to $500. The cleaning cannot be undone because it has damaged the surfaces of the metal.

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry to say...... you can't unclean a coin. :/

    I would think yours should be in the $400 to $500 range.
    If you are not in a hurry to sell you could try something like $575 buy it now OBO and see what kind of offers you get.

    https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=1858+flying+eagle+cent+small+letters&_sacat=0&_sop=16&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1

  • EdGOhioEdGOhio Posts: 45 ✭✭

    Thanks for the input all, the numbers mentioned are in line with what I had in mind although I'll take a slight loss but then as also mentioned I'll take that as my "tuition fee" ;) . I'm trying to decide if to keep or sell...this isn't a coin that I normally look for.

    It's a shame that there isn't a way for the regular collector to determine if a coin has been "chemically altered", sometimes it's very difficult to tell just by images, no matter how good, and even in hand.
    ...again...thanks for the input.

    Ed G.

    https://edgohio.ecrater.com/c/448903/collectable-coins

    Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value.

    • Albert Einstein
  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @EdGOhio said:

    ............It's a shame that there isn't a way for the regular collector to determine if a coin has been "chemically altered", sometimes it's very difficult to tell just by images, no matter how good, and even in hand......

    There IS a method, and it’s pretty close to perfect. It’s buying a coin in a holder that has been graded by one of the major TPG’s.

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
  • EdGOhioEdGOhio Posts: 45 ✭✭

    Do you work for one of the TPGs ? :D ...just kidding.

    I go to auctions, all types, regularly in my area and occasionally there are some interesting coin/PM finds that great/grandpa(maybe even grandma) had stashed away somewhere and the auctioneer isn't going to spend time and $$ for grading and evaluation.
    This is where I found a XF, at best, 1833 - 50¢ piece that has and always will be a personal fav for me as it sparked a interest in collecting, also picked up 2 1932-S's 25¢(one damaged) locally.
    I know there's a strong chance that gramps didn't fool with the coin at these type of auctions but you never know and having some form of testing would be beneficial in the field.

    Just food for thought.

    https://edgohio.ecrater.com/c/448903/collectable-coins

    Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value.

    • Albert Einstein
  • YQQYQQ Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭✭✭

    these are a couple of question that need to be asked:
    1 what right does a TPG have to automatically say the coin is cleaned? after all, the coin was submitted for grading and authentication ONLY. Not for additional comments!
    2 if a TPG says the coin is cleaned, then IMO, positive proof, beyond any daubt, would have to be also provided and
    not just as a guess and an easy out.
    3 Take a mix AU or better 100 coins from the 1800's and point out the coins which have NOT, positively not, been
    cleaned in any manner whatsoever. I bet many of these 100 coins will come back as "Cleaned" from one TPG but
    not so many from another.
    4 why are coins which** are paid to be "rejuvenated"** by some TPG's, NOT considered as cleaned?
    5, lastly, is cleaning with water and soap, your fingers and maybe a soft toothbrush traceable on a coin and can you prove it? is that cleaning?

    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2020 11:57AM

    Here's my OPINION on answers to each of your questions/points:
    1. Part of what you pay for as part of GRADING is THEIR OPINION on HOW MUCH cleaning THEY deem acceptable in THEIR SUBJECTIVE opinion. If you can't live with THEIR terms, then don't submit.
    2. I disagree. Their terms say otherwise. If you don't like THEIR terms, then don't submit.
    3. That's not the issue. The TPG's accept SOME cleaning that THEY deem to be acceptable. Same thing for CAC. I have MANY high grade silver coins that clearly were gently dipped at some point in time. However, in the opinions of BOTH PCGS and CAC, the dipping was done gently enough to still warrant a straight grade AND still merit the coveted CAC!
    4. Restoration done by "Professionals" is apparently (at least to them) deemed acceptable. Maybe not to CAC in some cases, but to the TPG's that perform professional restoration on a coin, to them it is acceptable. Don't forget that fine art is quite often professionally restored, and the market deems that normal. Give it to a butcher, and then not so much!
    5. While that is likely acceptable, my lay concern is the "soft' toothbrush could create some hairlines that would NOT be acceptable.

    The bottom line - the TPG's will not guarantee their subjective OPINION. As stated often above, if you don't like their terms, then just don't submit. No one is holding a gun to your head. You have free choice!

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 7,698 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What's done is done.

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