Resolved
coinlieutenant
Posts: 9,315 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have been a member in good standing here for 17+ years and I guess it was bound to happen eventually, but until yesterday, I had never had a deal go sour.
Yesterday, Adrian Mulligan, @KingOfMorganDollar posted a picture of an 1895-S $ in PCGS F12, asking for offers. I wrote him and offered $280, which was 10% back of greysheet bid.
He agreed. He asked for payment in advance and I asked for references. He didn't have any as he was new, but I generally give people the benefit of the doubt and sent him payment via Paypal Goods and Services. Trust has to begin somewhere for new members. He said he would send out the coin on Monday.
As soon as everything was settled I went back to the listing to snag the picture, but it had changed from an 1895-S to an 1895-O. I thought perhaps he was selling another coin and decided to reuse the thread. No big deal, but I asked him immediately to send me the picture of the 95-S. He sent me the picture of the 95-O. This was all within 60 minutes or so of the initial query. Clearly something was awry.
I immediately asked him to cancel the transaction and refund. I also contacted paypal to file an initial dispute. He refused to cancel the transaction and called me crazy. He has since blocked me on the boards. Sigh In the absence of communication, there is only escalation, which is why I am writing here, to warn the boards of potential issues.
If Adrian would like to make things right and communicate like adults in this business do, then I will update this thread. I am always open for the possibility of nuance and misunderstanding. Coin hasn't been shipped. No real damage done, but clearly unworkable without communications. Until then, please feel free to contact me with questions via PM.
John Marburger
Commander, USN (ret)
Silicon Valley Coins
Comments
A major feature that is missing from the forums is the ability to view the edit history of a post. This would be especially useful on the BST. I see that the seller edited their post on the BST this morning. This feature would allow both parties in a transaction to ensure that the photo of the item listed for sale is what is actually delivered to the buyer and that the price or details of a sale are altered for any deceptive purposes. As far as this situation it is tough to judge without hearing from the other party.
It’s easy to judge. Coinlieutenant has a good reputation. At least in my dealings with him.
Let’s suppose that OP did make a mistake and the coin is not what he thought he originally saw. Any reasonable person would refund that transaction without a second thought.
In the BST reputation is essential. I have never sold anything here but have purchased from multiple folks and have never ever had an issue. I have heard of a couple with scam buyers but very rarely.
Heather might have access to anything that was edited so if a swap out occurred she might be able to provide the 411
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
Absolutely will help and I would love to see edit history. I am open to the possibility that somehow I brained the picture and saw an S when it was an O. I doubt it, but it is possible. But I very clearly wrote initially saying I would purchase an 1895-S for $280. So even if I did mess it up, the coin hasn't been shipped and the transaction should be voided. No reason to stop communicating, unless you have something to hide.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
Concur
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
You might want to refuse delivery so he can’t say you did something.
my saying is expect the unexpected as it will happen no matter what you do and seems things went south but that is to be expected online where things can happen in a blink of an eye
just don't let this sour you on buying from the BST forum
2003-present
1997-present
John has always treated me well and I trust his word. Thanks for the warning. Why the heck would the new member block him and stop communicating if he was on the up and up? At least this guy only screwed you for a couple hundred. It could have been much worse. Trust me...
Did you check the slab #?
John has a long standing history as a member of the circle of trust and is an upstanding member here with no reason to make anything up. I to would like to hear the other party explain their side of the transaction and will keep an open mind until something; or nothing; is resolved.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I have people on ignore.
it is possible to see discussion titles and the OP
I recall an S
a cert lookup with the slab number should be in the browser history
He accused someone of deliberately switching a for sale picture [I guess also changing the thread title?] immediately post-sale. He's saying there was deliberate fraud. That is qualitatively different than a misunderstanding of buyer misreads & mis-sees, and seller refuses to cancel once the buyer realizes his mistake. The sale should be refunded since it hadn’t shipped, and the msg shows evidence of what he thought he was buying. If admins find it was fraud obv. ban and buyer can take other actions, but some comments here are a pretty bad look for this board absent additional evidence.
This seller isn’t exactly hiding. His 2012 eBay account where he listed some of the same coins as here has hundreds of transactions as a buyer and seller, primarily it seems in baseball cards over the years.
Google’s cache of the thread title and the post itself both show 1895-O and the same pic as now prior to the addition of the SOLD note by the seller. Google says those are the pages “as it appeared on Sep 29, 2020 01:07:10 GMT”
The trade should be cancelled, obvious misunderstandings and neither party should be hurt or enriched. When I saw the Buy/Sell item it was labeled 95- O with the 95-O picture but I do not know the original post listed.
However $280 is too much for a F12 95-O, ~30% over current pricing. But $280 is too cheap for a 95-S in PCGS slab with no obvious issues. But OP is not demanding the 95S, just a cancel of the the misunderstanding. I would not pay $280 for a F12 95-O, it was not an under-graded VF. For $280, I would want a VF25.
I am done with this I do not even own a 1895-S I have almost over 950 positive feedback on eBay since 2012 and over 1400 transactions all 100% positive. One can go look back in one of the topics where I wrote the next coin I want to buy myself is a 1895-S. I do not EVER change images on eBay you made the mistake and blamed me. My sale even shows a 1895-O PCGS F-12 on this forum. I am from now just going to buy and sell directly on eBay it's things like this that give me a sour taste.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
I regret even selling off of eBay should never have even crossed my mind. That is the only thing I regret doing on my end. You made a mistake not me I am honest I would have shipped the coin Monday no issues.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
I even have another eBay account with 670 positive feedback all 100% positive as well that is over 2000 transactions total. I have nothing else to add. I am not even mad lesson learned.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
Never start a new sale when you have bids on eBay.
He knows what the coin was once you receive 1 bid on eBay you cannot edit your images or title (you can add to the description but in a separate spot from the original listing) the coin was a 1895-O PCGS F-12 same exact coin I posted here for sale. Like I said lesson learned I never ended a auction early should have followed my own rule. I don't even care about the trouble my fault to have even tried selling off eBay. Now I have a negative strike on PayPal that sucks.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
Not my point. Once you receive a bid on eBay you’re obliged to complete sale. Shouldn’t have been listed here.
Yes you are correct I am NEVER doing this again. Second I would never even sold a 1895-S PCGS F12 for 260$ US + 20$ US shipping.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
Anyways water under the bridge and lesson learned.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
Happy to communicate via PM. This should have been super easy.
If you look above, I considered the possibility that i misread, but when you started getting a bit tilted and non responsive i figured something was up. You are new here Looks like a duck kind of thinking.
Communication would have solved everything.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
You do your thing I will do my thing end of this story. Non responsive I work afternoons to evenings each day. You wrote to me super early I got up to feed my cat his morning treats looked on here to see what was happening and saw your message wrote you back then went to bed no long after....re listed my coin up on eBay before hitting the sack) anyways I will not get into this just forget it. I do not care if I lost 25$ like I said lesson learned.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
trust me this has happened to me a few times I'm thinking this item is not selling on this site try another and then I see the item either has a bid or has sold, puts me into a bind cause now I have to fix the issue and explain the problem to the other site
never an easy situation to be in but it happens
2003-present
1997-present
It's OK I am not raking my mind with this will not list here and on eBay ever again that is on me my error I admit when I make errors. Will sell only on eBay as well.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
You blocked me. That sends a signal.
Trying one more time.
siliconvalleycoins.com
John is one of the best!! I am sorry for this issue. I totally agree with you from what I have read. I vaguely remember the FSH post but don't recall any detail.
Like I said John just let it go water under the bridge. You may wrote 1895-S I never caught it. In my mind we where talking my 1895-O (since I do not even own a 1895-S) then sent you the link to my eBay listing told you if you prefer just bid on eBay if that make you feel more secure. Like I said once a auction receives 1 bid a seller cannot modify the title or images any longer so I figured you knew what you where getting and the whole time a 1895-S never crossed my mind. It's over you got your refund from PayPal and that is that.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
Never said he is not a good guy just telling my end of the story. Errors do happen.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
PayPal should have now fully refunded you.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
Sounds like a misunderstanding, but the seller made the mistake by blocking the buyer from communicating with him after the error.
I felt his tone to be let's say not calm (I am saying this as nice as I can here) so I blocked him. It is hard to take when you know you did no wrong and you are a honest seller and buyer. I never had the intention of not making this right. He got his full refund.
But this story has ended so can we all just move along. I am not here to bash him some times there are road blocks in life and you get pass them.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
Happy to put this to bed.
In the end, communications are what matter. I was trying to communicate.
Once blocked i had to make the call to alert the forum so it didn’t happen again to someone else, given what i knew for certain at the time, or keep quiet with no recourse. I chose the former.
The response of cutting off communications after blatantly refusing a refund for a coin that had not even been shipped yet, from a forum newbie, understandably seemed nefarious. I am glad it likely wasn’t.
Give the exact same set of circumstances, i would do the same thing again, although i take no joy in it.
I’ve worked very hard for nearly two decades building this business. I want people to be happy in these dealings, whether they be buyers or sellers. I don’t buy off on the premise that any press is good press. I prefer to quietly build great collections and relationships with dedicated numismatic partners. In this instance i felt protective not only of my own money, but also the integrity of the boards and the hobby.
Adrian has refunded the money after all of this. It should have been easier but I wish him well.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
Same here John life moves on.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
I think that the thread title needs to be modified...,.
Thank you sir! 😊
Really glad that this has been resolved.
I don’t know Adrian but John is a real good guy. Happy this was resolved but it seems like an escalation could have been avoided.
reading all of this as an active buyer and seller on a few platforms I would buy from both people involved. There was no bad intent and most likely a minor misunderstanding. Its good it was resolved in a positive manner.
hmmm