Opinions on these copper coins?

brg5658

I'd like some general opinions on these coins and tokens.

Note: These are not my coins/tokens - and I'm looking for both positives and negatives of what you see here.

Thanks!

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TwoKopeiki

Not a huge fan of those copper spots and verdigris.

ksammut

Shame those spots are there. That anti-slavery token is especially nice, spot aside.

Yorkshireman

Hope I’m not a “buzz-kill”.
The only one I find remotely eye appealing is the top / anti-slavery piece.
The spot kills it for me though.
Surely each one of these has better specimens as options.

JBK

It's the curse of higher grade copper. A well circulated coin/token would build up a nice protective surface, but lightly circulated or uncirculated copper is more easily susceptible to corrosion.

brg5658

Let me demystify my reasons for this post a bit --

Preface: this is not an attack on any TPG or on whatever internal decisions take place in the grading room. These are my opinions, and I'm looking for input of others on their thoughts regarding slabbing copper by any TPG when it has visible green/verdigris or clear corrosion that has eaten into the surfaces.

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All 5 of the coins above received "straight grades" from our hosts. I only use them as examples because our host also takes very large and generally good photos of copper, so such things as green spots and corrosion metal damage are visible. In a sense, these photos act as documentation of the surfaces of a coin at the time of encapsulation - and thus the damage can't have developed in the holder after the fact. Below are the assigned grades and zoom in areas of corrosion / environmental damage on the coins posted above.

MS63BN

MS62BN

AU55BN

MS62BN

MS63BN

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My questions: Most TPGs have written policies allowing "details" (non-numerical) grades for coins with corrosion/environmental damage. The occasional coin "slips through" this policy into a straight-grade holder.

However:
1. Have others noticed this becoming more common over time (as I have noticed)?
2. What are the general thoughts on this practice?

I look forward to the discussion about this.

coinkat

Well... Not sure where to start. I did not see this turning into coins that had been graded. The first has nice color and is well struck for the type. I suspect it would trade at a discount. A coin such as this makes one think about priorities, what you value and whether there is reason to compromise.

The second looks as if the verdigris is still active. The same can be said of the third but it has the look of being worked and the verdigris is inoperable.

While this was not part of the question, I think expectations are important to consider when looking at copper coins/tokens and their intended use and how they survived in their current state.

amwldcoin

I can relate to your question on light side coins I specialize in. Many coins that would not receive a straight grade due to a light cleaning say around 5 years or so ago are now seemingly given a pass. It has made for a bifurcated market where 1 vrs. the other can sometimes be worth double. It also limits the market on the nice original coins to only those with the knowledge as most of the recent auction sales are for the later.

So many times I have a potential buyer say but look what the last 2 or 3 sold for at auction. And without fail all of them are coins I would not purchase. I have actually finally bought a few to use as examples. I will sell you this VF30 for $300, but if you want 1 for the results you just looked up I have this comparable VF30 example I will sell you for the $150 you seem to think the nice original coin is worth!

brg5658

@amwldcoin said:
I can relate to your question on light side coins I specialize in. Many coins that would not receive a straight grade due to a light cleaning say around 5 years or so ago are now seemingly given a pass. It has made for a bifurcated market where 1 vrs. the other can sometimes be worth double. It also limits the market on the nice original coins to only those with the knowledge as most of the recent auction sales are for the later.

So many times I have a potential buyer say but look what the last 2 or 3 sold for at auction. And without fail all of them are coins I would not purchase. I have actually finally bought a few to use as examples. I will sell you this VF30 for $300, but if you want 1 for the results you just looked up I have this comparable VF30 example I will sell you for the $150 you seem to think the nice original coin is worth!

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The concerns you express are aligned with my own. TPGS are supposed to give some level of confidence that a coin graded MS__ does not suffer from known problems - a numeric grade at the "big two" implies a "problem free" coin. Small carbon spots are one thing, but blatant corrosion and verdigris are all together different.

Serious numismatists and collectors know that all coins of a certain grade are not created equal. However, on the flip side of that argument is that people negotiate prices for coins based on previous sales. I have no problem telling someone "...well, that sold coin was far inferior to this coin in question..." but it also causes a certain level of distrust and inconsistency over time.

In the end, I just want TPGS to be honest on the labels. If the coin/token has significant corrosion spots or other environmental damage, the slab should state as much. I feel all 5 of the pieces posted above suffer problems significant enough that they likely should have been in Details holders. Just my opinions.