1878-CC Trade Dollar, is it genuine?
MarkW63
Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭
I'm on a five day crash course of online authenticating a few coins by people who know far more than I do about this topic!
Take a look at the pictures,
Let me know a few details that make it a keeper, or metal melt?
When I get back in contact with the owner, I want to have more than just my opinion.
Thanks!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
0
Comments
I'm going to go out on a limb and say "Not Genuine". The overall appearance is characteristic of many modern fakes of Chinese origin. The fine details are mushy in a way that neither wear, nor strike weakness could account for. Most concerning to me is the lack of "low relief detail". The gown folds in the center obverse, and the wheat stalks nearest the cotton bale, seem to "sink" into the fields. Genuine examples don't have this strange loss of detail, that should be protected from wear.
The extreme doubling on the reverse is unusual. I don't know if there is a genuine die variety like this, but I couldn't find an example in Coinfacts that has that. The coin is most likely not .900 silver, and probably weighs significantly less than the 27.2 grams of genuine trade dollar.
Buy as many as you want here for only $14.09
Notice the doubled reverse is the same and there is a pimple above the arrow heads. ( same dies as yours )
https://www.ecrater.com/p/32801967/1-pcs-1878-cc-trade-dollar-coin?gps=1
There is no limb to go out on. Modern fake.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Thanks for the link. This weekend I can forward it to the owner whom I'm helping with some coins he inherited.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Thanks, I don't know if he's weight it yet, probably not!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Given the pieces you have shared with us thus far, it might be safe to think that someone else believes you are either a mule or a mark. It's not a nice thought, but I've never seen someone come on here and post counterfeit after counterfeit after counterfeit.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Inherited, really? You expect us to fall for that???? No, as mentioned it is a poor Chinese counterfeit and illegal to sell. Not silver and great for target practice is all.
bob
I take it your name is Tom!
My name is Mark!
I shared a list of coins and couple of pictures with Mr. Feld!
He sent me here!
I posted the list of coins in question in the other topic!
I'm only here trying to get some extra support to take back to the owner of the coins other than just me!
I wanted to post enough of the batch to rule out the possibility of 4 or 5 counterfeit pieces in with a batch of some maybe real!
I decide to not litter the other thread anymore seeing how it had served its purpose for the ebay counterfeits!
My question to you is, why are you so critical of me? I made my intentions clear from the beginning?
I started this crash course seriously this past Sunday night, I'm trying to collect helpful information for some other sources and then present it to the owner this coming weekend.
Now, I've been friendly, Honest, and straight forward, but your not willing at this point to except that!
So, it doesn't matter to me if your RULE this forum!
If you don't want to contribute to my post then ignore them, I'm sure you there is other topics you can troll other than mine.
If it works out here, then yes! I do have maybe there or four coins that I would like to put up for discussion, that SHOULDN'T be counterfeits!
I was getting ready to start a discussion (new topic) about a 1955-D Lincoln Cent that has a doubled Die mint strike. But! I'll be perfectly find if you totally ignore its topic (thread)!
You don't like me that's FINE! no love lost.
You read this, or you read that, what was that all about?
I've come on here, I've not broke any normal forum rules.
Is there anything wrong in posting a list of questionable coins (which I did) for forum discussion about some of them in the list?
I have two good images from the other topic of really good details that I can show to the owner. I mean I have to tell him that his $30.000 worth of coins is totally WORTHLESS! That's almost like have to knock on someone's front door and telling them that their pet dog just ran out in front of you car and its now a greasy spot on the road.
I have some images that I've edited arrows on pointing to certain details to clearly show some one who has never seen a collected coin or ever looked at a coin guild book, he's a handyman who does home repairs.
What is the problem?
I've crowed LOTS of hours into this project in the past few days to help someone else, I want to close the door on it this weekend. This dollar may be the last of the batch, at most MAYBE one more.
Now, if I'm out of bounds here then have the admin kick me off!
Thanks to everyone who contributes.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Please settle down.
No one was disparaging YOU, just your coin(s).
There have been countless times in the past where new members arrive to solicit advice and opinions and are either disheartened by what they read or angry at the discovery they've been duped preceding asking for advice.
There have also been those who have taken advantage of the kindness of experts here and have twisted logic provided, believing they've been attacked.
I believe if you take a step back and read the comments again you will understand the answers are not complex or even compelling- they are simply factual and accurately true.
Not (always) sugarcoated yet free to use as you see fit.
Either case, stick around and it will become known to you your grave error in mocking a member here who is transparent and giving- to a point you might find yourself embarrassed at your tantrum directed at him.
I do thank you for your help, and if I miss interpreted something in your comment then I apologize. Maybe I read the Mark or Mule wrong.
I started this project with excitement as I talked to the owner (also Tom) on the phone, then it became WORK as the excitement deflated, but I want to finish the mission I started, I'm to far into it to not see it thru.
I've NEVER had a REAL rare coin in my position that required me to study it out and dig deep into the industrialized world of counterfeits. I said early on, I knew knocks existed, but I just never had a coin of enough value that gave cause for me to be enlightened to the counterfeit coin market.
My penny collection mostly started with metal detecting finds, then it got so many in it that I started searching ebay for penny upgrades, you know $2.00 or $8.00 or a group of say 6 coins for $20.00 dollars. I've been an active ebay member for 20 years, I don't have an ebay store, and to date I've not tried to sell a coin on ebay, and the only coins I've bought have been Lincoln cents. So, I've filled holes in my penny collection for over 20 years, I got down to needing the 14-D, 09S, and the 09S-VDB and so, for the first time in my life I'm getting into the world of counterfeit concerns, I got my 09S last year, It was slabbed, it came from and Ebay coin dealer with something like 15,000 98% postive feedbacks, YES it could be fake, I hadn't never came across any information about China knock off slabs and labels. I would maybe like to later on post a couple of pictures of it here, but I'm getting the idea that you don't like my presents?
For now I'm only here with question, not advice, I'm here for the pool of knowledge that I don't have!
Oh, there is NO even decent coin shop dealers in my area other than rip off pawn shops.
Mark
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Also, I questioned in the other thread about forum notification and I meant email, anyway I found the setting for it in my profile, so now I'm getting email notices to my comments.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Thank You for you reply.
I'm not upset about the coins being fake, I'm trying to enjoy the research, the only coin I've posted in this thread that I actually have any money in is the 09SVDB!
And at Mark Feld's suggestion after he looked at the same pictures was totally conclusive, so I posted the images here for farther discussion.
Now, I admit that its possible that i miss took three different comments that TomB made in his replies to my comments, he MAY have been referring to OTHER people like "Anyone With Any Knowledge Would know at first glance" and I thought he meant ME! but I let it go at the time!
Then, the "I read this and I read that" seemed to be a gig at me, then in my Trade Dollar thread he made a remark about me being a "Mule or a Mark" in that he's never seen anyone come on the forum before "posting counterfeit pic and counterfeit pic, after counterfeit pic" so, that on top of the other two and I guess I felt attacked.
Also, the post of mine your quoting is one that went missing when I when back to edit some changes?
So, it was meant to be reworked and toned down, I even closed my browser down and came back here and it was still GONE!
I do seriously apologize if the way TomB communicates came across to me as an attack, or I just misunderstood his intentions. I was just getting the idea that TomB thought I was just on here playing games.
I do need to admit that looking at the clock and seeing that its 3:30Am and thinking that I've been at this sense 10:30am yesterday morning, and my neck & shoulders are killing me, my eyes are burning, my brain is spinning so to much to sleep, my sleepy Time tea isn't doing anything more than a cup of hot water.
Good Night everyone, I have to go and lay down even if I can't sleep.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I think what might be a good compromise here is that MarkW63 should continue posting images of coins in threads like this but also include whether he thinks the coins are genuine/counterfeit and why.
Tom, that might be because most people who have or have been offered numerous counterfeits are clueless about it and don’t know about this forum.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Bob, the OP isn’t trying to fool anyone. He’s trying to get information to provide to the person who claims to have inherited the coins. Ans yes, it seems there’s a strong possibility that the owner already knows the coins are counterfeit.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Mark, I'm well aware of your good nature and helpfulness, but I think in this case it might be a little mis-guided. I'm reminded of the saying "the blind leading the blind" when I read the explanation of MarkW63 trying to help someone else.
probably the better advice you could give him is to get out of the way and let "the inheritor" seek out someone who is knowledgeable, not someone who is helpful. as this shows, trying to help can just cause more problems.
I think MarkW63 has been armed with the knowledge that the coins he’s asked about are counterfeit. If, by chance, the owner was unaware, he can now be made aware. And if he already knew, at least he won’t be able to take advantage of MarkW63.
I believe it’s been a worthwhile exercise and hope no one is upset that I suggested to the OP that he post some of the coins here. I had not seen all of the images at the time I did so.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Sorry, it's a fake, it has a type 1 reverse not used after 1876; please see here: https://cointalk.com/threads/how-do-you-spot-fake-trade-dollars-anyway.63695/
Sorry to say is another fake
Collector
75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
instagram.com/klnumismatics
It looks fake.
it is fake, modern and not even silver. Listen to KAZ he knows his stuff
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
That's helpful thank you!
I sure wish I had done that with the 09S VDB, that is MY coin and I do have specific questionable point of the coin where I think its real, but then I see other details that I think are fake! I would actually like to start OVER with that coin in a new thread with pictures pointing (edited in lines & markers) out that details, but, I'm not sure if that would be a good idea??
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I'm asking forgiveness from TomB in hopes that we can move forward?
I'm NOT misleading anyone here,
YES! Its not impossible that the owner has been misleading me to which I will know that by the end of this weekend!
But, as for me my intentions are GOOD.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Added Note!
The first photos I had of the coins were not as large and as good of details!
The pictures I've posted here I got a couple days later after I ask the owner (with suggestions) for larger, clearer photos, and better natural lighting, and things to do to take out hand shake.
That's the why Mr. Feld hadn't seen actually any of the later pictures.
Take the 1916-D Dime, here is what I started with,
and I had to crop, rotate, adjust the lighting to get it this good.
I had a decent picture of the 16 Quarter and the slab (case) of the 1895-O Morgan that Mr. Feld had seen.
Also, Mr. Feld didn't just direct me here in my first contact with him! you could say after he warmed up to me he felt safe enough that I was being on the up and up with him and I was (I am)
This was a picture in the first group of pics I got, YES! I thought the slabs were real, YES! I got excited for someone else getting a blessing like that! (I fell off the exploration cliff)
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Sad news! The "Mercury" dime and the two "PCGS" Morgans are also not genuine. Counterfeits in counterfeit holders. If possible, have your collector send these coins to PCGS for investigation and destruction.
Did he purchase them from a single source? Would he be willing to reveal that "dealer"?
Either way, these items should be taken out of and off the market.
That's where I'm at with this now! Get them out of the public and off any market possibility!
The owner (and ITS NOT ME) claims to have found these in with some other items of his deceased dad! and CLAIMED to me that he himself is clueless about the world of coins.
Yesterday I sent a email contact directing him to NOT doing anything with those coins until after our phone contact planned this weekend! He assured me that he wouldn't.
Now, you mentioned something that I hadn't thought about to this point.
Sending them back to PCGS? is this something that the owner should actually do, I mean if this is such a common thing I'm thinking PCGS may have just gave up the pursuit. I do want to do the right thing, that's why I'm here, gathering information.
Here's the reverse of the holders! (man I so regret that rocky start here)
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
No need to send them to PCGS for destruction, just destroy them yourself if that is what you want to do.
Destroying one or two fake slabs is like killing one mosquito and thinking you will never get bit again.
PCGS doesn't have the time to destroy shipping containers full of these, there are thousands entering the U.S. every day.
As a NOVICE hobby coin collector and metal detector-ist this is upsetting to KNOW how these scams INFECT the wonderful world of coin collecting!
I really didn't know how 'Industrialized" the counterfeit under world was, I understand the money racket that drives it, its just wasn't a reality to me,until the past few days
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Everything he posted is fake. Honestly I think he's a counterfeiter. He is either not a native speaker or is using google translate.
That’s really uncalled for. After seeing a few pictures that he sent of counterfeit coins, I suggested that he post here. He hasn’t tried to convince anyone that the coins are genuine. And if he were the owner of the coins and/or trying to sell them, after reading the comments here, I think he would have quit posting, long ago.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I had another LENGTHY post disappear?? But I'll get back to that later.
So, I'll post it AGAIN.
NUMBER REMOVED!
I live in West Virginia!
I'm 63 years old! (retired)
I've SAID I DO NOT OWN THE COINS!
If I was a counterfeiter this would be the LAST place I'm come, think about that!
The whole point of posting the pictures of a listed select group of coins is for the reason of confirming them FAKE!
I've never posted my Home contact phone number on a public forum before.
Did you look at my 1955-D penny thread? is it fake?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12695455#Comment_12695455
Here is some pictures of a couple of metal detecting coins I've found,
I found this quarter in a City Park in Huntington WV,
Its one of the deepest coins I've ever found, it was near 9" deep.
Here is another coin I found detecting along city street curbs in Huntington WV around 1985, it was VERY hard to find this one, it was ON edge up against the edge of a concrete sidewalk.
I'm posting real coins in topics that are about REAL coins!
I'm Posting counterfeit coins in topics about COUNTERFEIT COINS, why the He** would I be posted anything else?
My grammar, Yea! its lacking, But I never graduated high school!
I went to work FULL TIME when I was 16 years old, from that point I worked 44 years across three different jobs without a break in employment!
Also, I'm from Hickvile WV.
PLUS, I'm not pouring over my comments looking for grammar checks.
This plaque is directly in front of me above my desk, I just took this picture.
I worked there until May 2014 when the company shut it down due to Obamanomics.
I'm restraining from name calling!
But feeling like I have to prove who I am is a bit overwhelming at present.
Try Me!
Call Me!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Mark,
First thing you need to learn is you have to have thick skin to be on forums.
Come on......water off the back of a duck.
Anyone here can call me anything they like.....I don't care & I am not here to prove anything.
If I were you I would delete my phone number and move on.
I wish threads like this didn't have to reach this point.
Honestly, thanks for sharing your coins- both genuine (pretty toned proof Lincoln!) to the not-so-much.
I hope you remain in the hobby as it is a satisfying one- once you get past the minutia.
Well, I've had two rather long post totally vanish when I tried to edit them, including the one above, POOF totally gone, I had to completely redo the one above. Any ideas as to what I did wrong?
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I've been out most of the day and have spent little time on the boards. This is really the first time I have seen the progress of the @MarkW63 thread or images.
I'll state upfront that in my opinion neither of us owes the other an apology for anything in this or the other thread. MarkW63 appears to be someone who is out of his element with respect to posting on an active discussion board such as the PCGS board and/or with real-world experience with certain types or values of coins. Alternatively, I am quite comfortable here and I typically write in a very direct style with little regard to hand-holding and when I comment on a coin or a counterfeit I am actually commenting on the coin or counterfeit and not the person sharing the piece. Therefore, when I write that in my opinion, based upon the images shared, a piece is a particularly poor counterfeit then I simply mean that the piece is awfully bad and nothing more.
Similarly, when I wrote that you might be viewed by your friend or acquaintance as a "mark" or a "mule" it means that you may very well have been targeted or set-up to either buy any offered counterfeits outright (the "mark") or were viewed as being an honest person who might unwittingly distribute the counterfeits for someone else in order to keep them an additional arm's length away from the transaction and/or provide them plausible deniability (the "mule"). Trust me on this one, you don't want to be either the mark or the mule in this scenario.
As for this predicament that MarkW63 appears to be in. Well, if we take him at his word regarding these pieces then my strong advice would be as follows-
1) Contact the friend or acquaintance and tell him that you have misgivings about being involved in this deal as it appears some, many, most or all of the pieces have questionable authenticity.
2) Send the friend or acquaintance an email with an inventory spreadsheet of what you will be returning as well as attached images of the pieces.
3) Confirm the return shipping address via email.
4) Send the material Registered and/or Restricted delivery via the USPS and eat the shipping costs.
5) Walk away from the situation.
I don't think you want to be involved in this deal and don't think that destroying the pieces would help anyone as these appear to be mass produced and will not put a dent in the supply on the market. Good luck.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I wasn’t the one who suggested that you delete your number. It was poster ifthevamzarockin, but I do agree with him.
From time to time, I’ve tried to post something and it’s disappeared. In each case, I first quoted someone else and then tried to reply. When I removed the quoted post and then included just my own reply, I was able to post.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Not sure why you are having problems editing and I'm not sure how you quoted MFeld for something I wrote.
Maybe a bit more practice with your computer thingie.
Oops!
MFeld, I knew that wasn't you, and I know what happened. In learning my way around on this forum, when I did that quote I went to the upper part and attempted to remove some of the bulk of the content, and NOT knowing how the HTML tags work I messed them up. On the other forums I'll move and add the tags around to reduce content of the quote. The system here is entirely different.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Okay, that was weird. The OP posted a longer reply and then it disappeared. There was nothing I noticed that would be cause for removal. It is something that would have had to be done by a Mod, it is not something the OP could do by editing.
?????
It actually just happened again,
I had a post up, I saw an obvious grammar error, I clicked the little GEAR at the right top of the comment window, I selected edit, made the change, clicked the SAVE COMMENT option at the lower right and POOF the comment was gone!! I scrolled up and down the page and the post was gone!
Then I noticed in the last blank comment window at the bottom of the page, in its lower right was a cancel option, I clicked that and POOF there was the post!!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Once a post is made only a Mod can remove it.
You can edit your post but if you want to remove everything you need at least 1 character left.
Something strange is going on.
@MarkW63
No aspersions being cast against you. Rather, your friend with the "inherited" coins is the one who is raising suspicions.
Now, his story might be 100% legit - maybe he did inherit all these fake coins from his father. In that scenario, his father would have had to have gone on a mad buying spree, as most of these are fairly recent Chinese fakes.
More probable is that you are being sold a story by someone who hopes to sell you some junk. Happens all the time.
@TomB If your good then I'm fine, your replies and comments in my topics is greatly appreciated as much as anyone else.
I Do Not have in my possession any of those coins, if I did many things would have went down a lot differently, I would have had control over the pictures. But, I am making the owner STRONG suggestions until we talk on the phone this weekend to NOT do anything with those coins, NOT to sell them, post them on ebay until I can update him with all that I've found out.
Thanks For Your input.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I'll try to be more of aware of quick click changes and watch for signs of something maybe popping up that's getting selected by mistake.
One thing I notice when I typing a comment is small little boxes pop up around near where I'm typing saying about about "saving a draft" I know what a draft is, but I don't know if its doing something automatically and if so where are all these mysterious draft's at? That's something I'm not used to seeing on other forums?
And, at the bottom left outside the message box it reads
"You can use Markdown in your post"
Okay, that's another, I don't know what that is either?
See, I said I was a sponge and not a know it all
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Oops!
I started a comment, decided not to follow through with it, never CLICKED the "Post Comment" but it wouldn't let me NOT do something with it! I tried to just clear all the text out, but then I got a red box message banner above the main message window that said something about "Message Body Required" So, I just used the space for this message?
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Thank you for posting those links, I'm book marking them and this one will be very helpful to show him.
I'm going back through the dollar threads picking out specific KEY points and pics that I can send to the owner and then discuss with him over a phone call.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!