CONTROVERSY (for those who like such stuff)

pontiacinf

I found this quote in a Scott Travers© book which I found to be very interesting:

I'm against the holders. I'm against the guys that run the business of holders. I'm against the people who buy stuff in holders. I'm against the dealers who deal stuff in holders. I'm against Bullet Auctions and all other [baloney]. I'm against the morons who buy the stuff to get rich quick. I'm against everything-the whole concept. The crack out game is a form of low-level larceny. The convention circuit boys who deal in slabs aren't interested in colletors or nusimatics, their parasites.

Anybody who pays an extra 10k for a coin that grades one point higher is a nut. That one point might be smoke. You're paying ten grand extra for something that might be ephemeral.

© John J. Ford Jr.
former longtime dealer and outspoken coin collectors advocate.

hehehe...anything to say guys?????????????

pontiacinf

Im noticing I posted this but didnt give my point. He sounds like some guy who got ripped off in the past and has a life time grudge...if he were a long time dealer, wouldnt he have to operate on the same level as everyone else? I dont think I mean integrity wise (i-e i wouldnt sell that junk coin to someone stupid) but sell the same inventory? or did he just deal raw stuff?

Did anyone know him? I doubt hes a member here.

the book was Scott Travers "how to make money in coins right now" and is back dated to 1996.

DIMEMAN

I'm not sure if he is or was a dealer, but I have heard the name. He sounds a little extreme. There is a lot of BULL going on out there, but overall I think that PCGS has helped at least a little. I also don't like the crackout game unless the coin is really undergraded. Most of the time it's right but the person just wants to try and squeez(sp) another point, which usuall means big bucks. This is why I buy Walkers in 64 that look like 65's. They were coins (late date) that wouldn't be worth slabbing as a 64. I don't buy them to try and upgrade. It's just easier to resell (if needed) if a coin is high end or PQ for the grade.

Just my plan.

Jon

TCiccone

There is a real problem with the holder game!

In one sense they are awsome third party endorsement and help the saleability of coins in todays highly sight unseen marketplace! If a coin has been certified, you are probably going to receive something close to the grade listed, better or worse. Also depending on who certified the coin.

But....with 4-5 years experience of looking at certified coins, I am starting to believe it is a somewhat political endeavor. I have received coins purchased sight unseen and wondered what the grader was smoking when it was graded! I feel that it was certified for someone with ties to the company, if not for resale for one of a firm's owners! What a conflict of interest!

TRUTH in the saying "buy the coin and not the holder"!

TC

Mark

John Ford is a MAJOR collector and researcher, who was likely somewhat better known in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. I have to guess that his collection of frontier gold and fronier gold bars is the best in the world. He spent a great deal of the 50's advertising and buying gold bars from residents in the West. Recently there was a flap over whether these bars were legitimate when a researcher published an article questioning them in the ANS's periodical. There was a debate at an ANA convention with R.W. Julian asserting the bars were legitimate. I believe the whole issue is now in the courts because Ford and Stacks (the dealer that sold most of Ford's discoveries) have sued the researcher (whose nme escapes me) for libel.

In any case, Ford is a major long-time player in numismatics. And I am sure that others can provide many more details about his endeavors than I.

Mark

cladking

I believe he was Breen's boss at one time too. How about some quotation marks, some
of that sure doesn't sound like anything Ford would say. In any case it is extremely difficult
to support the concept of having a third party assign a value to a coin based on a grade
which cannot be fixed because of the fluid nature of the market. Many of these abuses
could have been predicted. If Ford did make all those comment, I'm sure he didn't mean to
imply that some coins shouldn't be collected because they are valuable in high grade.

roadrunner

If I recall correctly John J. Ford worked with Lester Merkin at New Netherlands Coin Co. in the 1950's.
Some of the finest condition coins of that era came from New Netherlands. Ford's knowledge level and contributions to the hobby are right up there with the best of all time. If an all time who's who in numismatics was created, he'd be there. Travers no doubt used Ford's opinion in his book to make a point about the slab game and what one point difference can mean. A classic example that comes to my mind immediately is the dipping out of what was possibly the world's finest 1901-s quarter. I think this was the James Stack (3/75) coin. This coin had wonderful original toning up until around 1988-89. I believe it was slabbed out as a 66 then. It was dipped out at the last big market peak and immediately doubled in price when it went a point higher. Anyone know where that coin is today and if it's still white?


roadrunner

pontiacinf

thank you too all for the info and insight, its interesting to say the least

nwcs

I'm against the holders. I'm against the guys that run the business of holders. I'm against the people who buy stuff in holders. I'm against the dealers who deal stuff in holders. I'm against Bullet Auctions and all other [baloney]. I'm against the morons who buy the stuff to get rich quick. I'm against everything-the whole concept. The crack out game is a form of low-level larceny. The convention circuit boys who deal in slabs aren't interested in colletors or nusimatics, their parasites.

So this person is against just about everything? It's very easy to throw criticism and sarcasm at an existing system. It's much harder to propose an alternative that would solve the situation. Has this person offered any alternatives that help prevent dishonesty and promotes integrity in business? If he hasn't, then he hasn't really said anything constructive or useful.

Personally, I've enjoyed the slab system somewhat. It's helpful for me as I'm still learning how to grade well and provides me a common frame of reference to deal with others on coins. I don't think the wide price differences between MS states is warranted, but then again all I do is vote with my pocketbook and not spend more than I think is worth it for a coin.

Neil

WWBillman

<< <i>The crack out game is a form of low-level larceny. >>



I have over and over openly expressed my disgust with the crack out game. He is correct in that statement. The crack out game is for self serving short sighted people.

If someone cannot refrain from cracking slabs the least they could do is send the old inserts back to the grading service so they could adjust the pop reports. That includes cross overs, the company that crosses it always returns the old insert with the coin.

I don't think that is to much for the hobby to ask from them.

Typetone

I think the statement is extreme and is being used, and was probably said, to make a point.

As a set registry participant, I of course disagree with most of the comment. However, I do believe there is one very valid point. That is the risk of paying a huge price for an extremely low pop modern when the next best grade is many times cheaper. The state quarters in MS68 in another post are a good example. In one grade down (67), these coins are certainly only a small fraction of the price that the 68s brought. I'm fairly certain that if they were cracked out, they would not bring anything like the premium they brought. Is there really such a difference between really nice 67s and these 68s. I have to say that I am skeptical. This comment applies to classic as well as moderns. Hope the buyers got what they wanted, and I wish them luck.

Greg

DeepCoin

As much as some would like, life is not black and white. It is many shades of grey. Slabbing has its own set of difficulties, but at least you can be reasonably certain the coin is authentic.

The other thing is that the whole issue of grade is removed from the discussion with a dealer. This has certainly taken many dollars out of the pockets of some dealers. The operative word is some.

I agree the crack out game is not a good thing for the hobby, but it is a logical extension of slabs. You still have to be able to grade the coin in the slab.

cladking

If John J Ford did make the statement regarding the price difference
in high grade, he could not possibly have been referring to modern coins. The statement
was from 1996 or before and THERE WAS NO MODERN GOING FOR $10,000 at that time.
Indeed, at that time, all moderns were well beneath the radar of virtually all observers. A
few Ikes had quietly sneaked up to around a thousand dollars, so if he made the statement
it was not in reference to moderns. If he had been familiar with moderns and have made
the statement then he may well have excluded them since they are so rare in high grade as
to be almost equivalent to an entirely different coin to the run-of-the-mill.

keets

some of the comments above me remind me of the old adage that says guns don't kill, people do. the point being that a slabbed coin in and of itself is not intrinsically good or bad, nor is it the reason for the price being high or low. that rests with the purchaser. this arguement has been discussed ad nauseum. if you don't want to pay a hefty premium for a higher certified grade, don't. boy is that easy. but don't sit around and blame the escalating prices on slabs!! if you don't agree with a stated grade on an insert, don't pay the premium. boy is that easy!! i say that if you want to gripe about the current state of the hobby, don't blame it on slabs, and go look at some overpriced and overgraded raw coins and pray real hard that the good old days----yeah, right----come back!!

the qouted comment from the original thread reeks of one who has soured or stagnated in our hobby. it just sounds as though he has an axe to grind and found an audience. change for some isn't easy but it is essential for all.

al h.

RegistryCoin

Very well stated, Al.

braddick

Right. Slabs don't kill, greed does.

michael

yes i havr something to say.... BUY THE COIN NOT THE HOLDER

ALSO without greed john fords statements would not be correct


but it is the greed factor and that is okie some are making huge profits off of others greed i think he is absolutely right in what he is saying

but i might add that if you use these two thoughts below when buying slabs then i think slabs are okie in fact great and a bonus!!

BUY THE COIN NOT THE HOLDER!!!!!

MAKE SURE WHEN YOU BUY THE COIN THAT IT IS WORTH ALMOST AS MUCH OUT OF THE HOLDER AS IN THE HOLDER

then you will do okie...............

for example if you buy a state quarter in ms 68 just make sure the coin is worth close, within reason to what it is worth in the holder!!

as really it is the coin not the holder that gives it value if you choose otherwise then that is okie but let the buyer beware!!

sincerely michael

wondercoin

"BUY THE COIN NOT THE HOLDER!!!!!"

Michael: Do I take it then that you will break all your coins out of the holders in order to only sell them to sophistacated buyers who will buy your coins, not your holders? In the age of 3rd party grading, with all due respect, this is boloney.

Prove me wrong and bust all your classic coins out of their holders. I didn't think you would do it Wondercoin.

Typetone

Mitch:

I think Michael is simply saying to make sure the coin would be worth almost as much raw as it is in the holder, not that it should be broken out.

My philosophy is buy the coin and the holder!!

Greg

coynclecter

With all the negative aspects and inconsistancies of third party grading, I wouldn't for a minute consider a return to the preslab days when every coin had two grades, one they bought it as and the one they sold it as. There was just too much time wasted with dealers with huge buy lists but rarely buying anything and nothing that was correctly graded. Those "two graders" really miss the "good old days" I don't.

Coyn

BobbyL

Apparently the belief that all the Dinosaurs are extinct is a rumor. John Ford is still alive. Wake up and realize this is the 21st Century. I've been in the business for 47 years and I've accepted the changes. I've ever perpetuated and supported most of them. Some people just won't accept that slabbing is here to stay just like Rock and Roll. I know David Hall will accept that comment.

keets

good comparison of dinosaurs with slabbed coins because if you consider that grading services are less than two decades old, they seem to be evolving nicely. there have been many changes, some good and some not so good, but all-in-all they have benefitted collectors. IMHO there are changes on the horizon with some "extinctions" and new "species" showing up. i'd like to see some of the majors be a little less self-serving in the way they operate.

hey bobby---back to MR.Ford. what's your take on his statement? and hey, that wasn't a crack on rock-n-roll was it? i'm gonna go see the allman brothers band tonight, georgia boys doin' the southern blues thing up here in the rock-n-roll capital.

al h.

cladking

The dinosaurs that survived evolved into birds, didn't they.