German Empire (Kaiserreich) Gold Coins Discussion

DeutscherGeist

We are covering German coins from 1871-1918. Germany had a monarchy, but there were semi-democratic institutions in place such as a representative body of the people (Reichstag, or lower house) and a free press. The year 1888 saw Germany with three different emperors: Wilhelm I, Friedrich III, and Wilhelm II. When one died, a son was coronated. Wilhelm II was the grandson of Wilhelm I. The imperial line continues to exist today in Germany with Georg Friedrich the current head of the House of Hohenzollern. He would be Kaiser today if the title still existed. Countries such as Great Britain, Sweden, and the Netherlands have kept their monarchies to some official degree, even if symbolic, but Germany has stayed far away from that as they continue to deal with their inhibitions as a direct reaction to shedding their dark past. Do not count on seeing coins of Georg Friedrich anytime soon.

I am just trying to create a forum where fans of this series can discuss and share information.

I have at least one gold coin of each of the three Kaisers. While prices are high as of this writing as we see all time highs for gold, does this affect the 1888 coins of Friedrich III? I am looking to buy high grade gold coins of his. My biggest concern would be possibly overpaying. What would be a good price for each denomination (5, 10, or 20 Marks) in a Gem type quality? Would Gem quality for this coin include MS66 and above?

neildrobertson

Study a few of the big German auction houses. These gold coins are plentiful there and should help inform your pricing. I don't watch the gold sections since I'm not buying gold.

In my experience, there is not super consistent pricing for that type of stuff. It's a thinner market than US gold. Many of the coins and collectors are in small numbers.

291fifth

Thin collector market plus gold price bubble equals high risk area. Are they anything more than bullion today even if in high grade?

SaorAlba

Add to that there are known counterfeits of particular issues, particularly from the scarcer non-Prussian issues.

worldcoinguy

It might be worth browsing atlasnumismatics.com. I noticed quite a selection when I was browsing a few days ago.

neildrobertson

@291fifth said:
Thin collector market plus gold price bubble equals high risk area. Are they anything more than bullion today even if in high grade?

Yes. There are around ~120 different types of German Empire Gold Coins. Many of us have only seen a small fraction of them because most are pretty rare. If we are just talking about the 10 Mark and 20 Mark types with the Friedrich III bust, then those are some of the more common types. They'll be more than bullion in high grade but I'm guessing their prices will fluctuate with gold prices.

DeutscherGeist

@291fifth said:
Thin collector market plus gold price bubble equals high risk area. Are they anything more than bullion today even if in high grade?

This was a concern of mine. Friedrich III was only available in 1888, so it is rarer than Wilhelm I or Wilhelm II, but I was not sure if it was so affected with the fluctuations of the gold market. I did purchase a 10 Mark Friedrich III that has been lightly cleaned for melt back when gold prices were more moderate because I just wanted one to have all three Kaisers represented in my collection. The coin still looks nice with good details, but I did not feel comfortable paying any more than melt and it helped that the dealer primarily deals with US coins and just wanted to off load it quickly (he likely got it below melt).

Maybe it's not the right time buy Friedrich III right now, but I have been seeing some higher grade examples priced many times the melt price of their gold content. Here is one from the dealer suggested by WorldCoinGuy:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GERMAN-ST-Prussia-Friedrich-III-1888-A-AV-20-Mark-PCGS-MS66-KM-515-J-248/184292109893?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649[https://ebay.com/itm/GERMAN-ST-Prussia-Friedrich-III-1888-A-AV-20-Mark-PCGS-MS66-KM-515-J-248/184292109893?

WillieBoyd2

Several years ago I read an account of the 1946 Hesse Jewel robbery, committed by three American Army officers stationed in Germany.

The trio got away with several million dollars worth of jewels and gold belonging to one of the royal families of Germany, the Hesse family.

The account was given in in Kenneth Alford's 1994 book The Spoils of World War II.

One of the minor items of loot was a "German gold ten-mark coin with Frederick III" which was otherwise unidentified.

The coin was the property of Princess Mafalda, daughter of the king and queen of Italy, who had married one of the Hesse family members, Prince Philipp. "The ten-mark coin bore the head of Emperor Frederick III, grandfather of Princess Mafalda's husband, and had been given to her by Queen Margaret of Italy".

Anyway, I became curious about the "German gold ten-mark coin" and found out that it was a one-year type because Frederick III was king of Prussia for only about three months in 1888.

Maybe something in the coin collector's psyche, but I had to have one.

Germany Prussia 10 Marks 1888-A (Berlin) - Frederick III
FRIEDRICH DEUTSCHER KAISER KONIG V. PREUSSEN
(Frederick, Emperor of Germany, King of Prussia)
DEUTSCHES REICH 1888 / 10 MARK
(German Empire / 10 Marks)
Gold (0.900), 19 mm, 3.98 gm, Krause catalog number: 514

1509eric

The Prussia 20 Mark coins are very common, they are sold as bullion here, but mostly in XF-AU condition. you can get them in Germany almost everywhere where gold is sold. Price right now arround 470-500 $. Wilhelm II is the cheapest, a bit extra for Friedrich I and Wilhelm I. But specially Wilhem I coins are mostly worn most. Sometimes you can be lucky to get a Hamburg or Bavarian 20 Mark from Bullion Seller or Bank too, just for the Gold price. 5 and 10 Mark are "collectors coins" with a premium. But even the 20 Mark coins from Prussia in MS garde are sold for a little above the gold price.

1509eric

...for talking about Fake coins from this period, there was a "missunderstanding" about the law about reproduction coins in the early 1960 and a smart guy "Schmidt / Hausmann" started to reproduce gold coins from that time and sold them as copy. These copys are almost not to identify from the originals...same gold content and perfectly copied dies, even some gold trader accept them as originals. Beside from a few fantasy issues from years where no coins where minted. They still belive that there are a lot of these copys out there wich are not identified jet.

DeutscherGeist

WillieBoyd2,

Thanks for bringing my attention to that story. Very unfortunate about the looting incident, but the story, from a numismatic point of view, highlights the 10 Mark Friedrich III coin. Sometimes a nice story is all a collector needs to be motivated in owning a coin for their collection.

DeutscherGeist

@1509eric said:
...for talking about Fake coins from this period, there was a "missunderstanding" about the law about reproduction coins in the early 1960 and a smart guy "Schmidt / Hausmann" started to reproduce gold coins from that time and sold them as copy. These copys are almost not to identify from the originals...same gold content and perfectly copied dies, even some gold trader accept them as originals. Beside from a few fantasy issues from years where no coins where minted. They still belive that there are a lot of these copys out there wich are not identified jet.

So, the Kaiser gold is a lot like the Sovereigns in that copies were made with real gold and in some cases, bullion dealers do not care which is fake or which is original since the gold content is all they care about. Well, I do have unslabbed 10 and 20 mark coins that I bought at zero or low premium back when gold was hundreds of dollars less. Maybe I ended up with a fake, but at least its gold.

I am learning a lot from this thread.

1509eric

I also like the Friedrich coins the most, specially because they are only minted one year, low mintage but even not too expensive. 2 Mark (500.000) 5 Mark (200.000) 10 Mark (876.224) 20 Mark (5.363.501)
Specially from the 20 Mark Wilhelm II each year was made between 2 - 6 Million pieces, so you see there are still many coins arround!

About the copy coins, there are two signs for a possible identyfing the copys:
the edge lettering is weaker that the original also pearl wreath should not touch the edge and be visible as single dots.

1509eric

I send my 10 Mark Friedrich to NGC and got a MS 61

If you are looking for prices I reccomend this seller:

https://www.kuenker.de/en

SaorAlba

@1509eric said:
...for talking about Fake coins from this period, there was a "missunderstanding" about the law about reproduction coins in the early 1960 and a smart guy "Schmidt / Hausmann" started to reproduce gold coins from that time and sold them as copy. These copys are almost not to identify from the originals...same gold content and perfectly copied dies, even some gold trader accept them as originals. Beside from a few fantasy issues from years where no coins where minted. They still belive that there are a lot of these copys out there wich are not identified jet.

Which explains why I posted above, I got stung on a 1911 Hamburg 20 Mark that I bought there in Hamburg - I didn't find out that it was a fantasy date piece until I got back to the USA - the gold and weight are fine but the coin is a forgery. While I eventually sold all my Prussian, Bavarian, Saxony pieces I kept the Hamburg as a lesson.

Que_sai_je

By coincidence, just got this one today. From year of 3 Emperors. Rare as a proof. Under graded by today's standards, holder is circa 1990.