How rare is a 1919 uk one penny made with copper.

Dewlynn59

I have an 1919 uk penny made of 95% copper. This is the only example known. See pcgs verification #39837766. I'm seeking $2 million us dollars.

MasonG

How did you determine it's cupra-nickle?

cwt

https://dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2408762/One-penny-wrong-metal-1919-sell-600-000-times-face-value.html

cwt

Be aware though you would have to have your penny verified as such.

JBK

You would need to post pics for starters.

Dewlynn59

@Sapyx said:
It's almost certain that a silvery-coloured penny you happen to find will not actually be a mint error made of cupronickel. It's probably been plated or painted silver, in an attempt to pass it off as a halfcrown.

If you show us some pictures of your actual coin, we might be able to tell if it's an obvious fake. If it's the coin that's your current avatar, we'll need to see better pictures than that. But in the meantime, some pointers:

• Weight, to the nearest tenth or hundredth of a gram if possible. A cupronickel coin will almost certainly weigh different to a normal bronze 1919 penny (which should be 9.4 grams).
• Wear. A genuine 1919 penny isn't going to be heavily circulated; someone would have noticed and pulled it out of circulation long before that. But a plated penny attempting to imitate a half-crown is likely to be worn, as a worn coin attracts less suspicion.

See pcgs verification # 39837766.

Dewlynn59

@7Jaguars said:
I would not take bets.....Seriously though, plated pennies are not all that uncommon and I have gotten gold and silver plated pennies. They have a distinctive appearance to experts.
As mentioned, the weight is of capital importance and would have to be significantly different than the expected 9.4 gm.
I have had variable feedback on XRF as it is the surface metal that is read so not sure what a heavier plating might do - on the other hand heavier plating is more obvious to inspection.

Please post pictures at the very least.

See pcgs verification # 39837766. This coin should be bronze, but it's not.

Dewlynn59

@syl said:
It is absolutely normal and common and exposed to some kind of solvent/cleaner on the Obv.

Pcgs verification# 39837766. This coin should be bronze, but it's not.

Dewlynn59

@Dewlynn59 said:

@Dewlynn59 said:

@MasonG said:

@Dewlynn59 said:
I just received the metallic composition analysis from pcgs, this coin is 96.6%, cooper.1.2%zinc and 3.3% stannum.

Copper, zinc and tin- there's no nickel in the coin. How can it be "cupra-nickle"?

I stand corrected.> @7Jaguars said:

This is absolutely NOT a copper nickel specimen, so give that thought a rest. I have many OMS copper nickel including farthings, halfpennies and pennies of the 20th C. and they do not appear at all similar.
Also,the coin in question is graded VF 20BN - the BN stands for Brown and copper nickel is not designated as such.

This coin is 95% copper, when it should be bronze. No bronze found.> @ajaan said:

How much does it cost to have PCGS do a metallic composition analysis on a coin?

I have no idea. It was free for me.

This coin is not bronze,> @MasonG said:

How did you determine it's cupra-nickle?

Thinking to fast before I got it tested.

Turning out to be 95% copper. When this coin should be bronze.

ajaan

@Dewlynn59 said:

@MasonG said:

@Dewlynn59 said:
I just received the metallic composition analysis from pcgs, this coin is 96.6%, cooper.1.2%zinc and 3.3% stannum.

Copper, zinc and tin- there's no nickel in the coin. How can it be "cupra-nickle"?

I stand corrected.> @7Jaguars said:

This is absolutely NOT a copper nickel specimen, so give that thought a rest. I have many OMS copper nickel including farthings, halfpennies and pennies of the 20th C. and they do not appear at all similar.
Also,the coin in question is graded VF 20BN - the BN stands for Brown and copper nickel is not designated as such.

This coin is 95% copper, when it should be bronze. No bronze found.> @ajaan said:

How much does it cost to have PCGS do a metallic composition analysis on a coin?

I have no idea. It was free for me.

How did you get it for free?

Dewlynn59

Yes.

Sapyx

It's almost certain that a silvery-coloured penny you happen to find will not actually be a mint error made of cupronickel. It's probably been plated or painted silver, in an attempt to pass it off as a halfcrown.

If you show us some pictures of your actual coin, we might be able to tell if it's an obvious fake. If it's the coin that's your current avatar, we'll need to see better pictures than that. But in the meantime, some pointers:

• Weight, to the nearest tenth or hundredth of a gram if possible. A cupronickel coin will almost certainly weigh different to a normal bronze 1919 penny (which should be 9.4 grams).
• Wear. A genuine 1919 penny isn't going to be heavily circulated; someone would have noticed and pulled it out of circulation long before that. But a plated penny attempting to imitate a half-crown is likely to be worn, as a worn coin attracts less suspicion.

Oldhoopster

Finding something like this is equivalent to lottery winning odds. You need to show solid data or your claim is going to be met with skepticism.

Here are some easy ways to tell if its plated or damaged

Weigh it - as others have said, use an accurate scale with 0.1 or 0.01 resolution.
XRF - many "buy gold" shops and jewelers have handheld xrf units. It should be able to determine if you have plated copper or copper nickel
Pictures - many members on this site have examined thousands and thousands of coins and can recognize the characteristics of a plated or environmentally damaged coin vs an example struck at the mint.

While it would be great if you found the second example, you need to realize it's extremely unlikely. And without pictures, it's the equivalent of saying you saw aliens landing in your backyard.

7Jaguars

I would not take bets.....Seriously though, plated pennies are not all that uncommon and I have gotten gold and silver plated pennies. They have a distinctive appearance to experts.
As mentioned, the weight is of capital importance and would have to be significantly different than the expected 9.4 gm.
I have had variable feedback on XRF as it is the surface metal that is read so not sure what a heavier plating might do - on the other hand heavier plating is more obvious to inspection.

Please post pictures at the very least.

Dewlynn59

@Dewlynn59 said:
I have an 1919 uk penny made of cupra-nickle. Only one example known. Is this that two million dollar coin , or more?

I just received the metallic composition analysis from pcgs, this coin is 96.6%, cooper.1.2%zinc and 3.3% stannum.

7Jaguars

Maybe zinc plated? Sn can be up to 4%!!! Zn 1 - 1.5% so that is normal. I don't know what the silvery appearance of the reverse is except possible alloy issues; or maybe photographic exposure?

JBK

That coin absolutely looks like a standard copper/bronze penny.

syl

It is absolutely normal and common and exposed to some kind of solvent/cleaner on the Obv.

Dewlynn59

@MasonG said:
How did you determine it's cupra-nickle?

I had it tested see pcgs verification #39837766.

Dewlynn59

@7Jaguars said:
I would not take bets.....Seriously though, plated pennies are not all that uncommon and I have gotten gold and silver plated pennies. They have a distinctive appearance to experts.
As mentioned, the weight is of capital importance and would have to be significantly different than the expected 9.4 gm.
I have had variable feedback on XRF as it is the surface metal that is read so not sure what a heavier plating might do - on the other hand heavier plating is more obvious to inspection.

Please post pictures at the very least.

I had it tested, see pcgs verification #39837766.

Dewlynn59

@JBK said:
That coin absolutely looks like a standard copper/bronze penny.

This coin should be bronze, but it's not see pcgs verification #39837766.

Dewlynn59

@syl said:
It is absolutely normal and common and exposed to some kind of solvent/cleaner on the Obv.

This coin should be bronze, but it's not pcgs verification #3837766.

Dewlynn59

@7Jaguars said:
Maybe zinc plated? Sn can be up to 4%!!! Zn 1 - 1.5% so that is normal. I don't know what the silvery appearance of the reverse is except possible alloy issues; or maybe photographic exposure?

This coin should be bronze, but it's not see pcgs verification #39837766.

syl

Stannum is the Latin word for tin. As such, the analysis fits right into the "bronze" family. The bronze alloy for bronze for the British and Canadian cents was 95 Cu, 4 Sn, and 1 Zn. Just the machine that did the analysis could be off by that much and the PCGS figures add up to 101%, let alone that the XRF was probably calibrated for gold/silver alloys, not copper. You know, I always wondered why the chemical element abbreviation for tin was "Sn" and now I know.

ajaan

https://pcgs.com/cert/39837766

7Jaguars

The reverse certainly looks different in the PCGS pictures.

syl

I really don't care what PCGS says it was on their cert. With that alloy composition (that adds up to 101%+), it is bronze. There isn't any mention of any "nickel" in it, so that leaves cupro-nickel out. Again, 95 Cu, 4 Sn, and 1 Zinc is what it was supposed to be. Take away 1% copper from their measured elements and give it to tin and there you have it.

ajaan

How much does it cost to have PCGS do a metallic composition analysis on a coin?

7Jaguars

I have wondered that too, and have thought about sending a couple in. But the other question is: are these numbers for composition derived from XRF readings or mass spec, or what?

Dewlynn59

@syl said:
I really don't care what PCGS says it was on their cert. With that alloy composition (that adds up to 101%+), it is bronze. There isn't any mention of any "nickel" in it, so that leaves cupro-nickel out. Again, 95 Cu, 4 Sn, and 1 Zinc is what it was supposed to be. Take away 1% copper from their measured elements and give it to tin and there you have it.

Are you a scientist.

7Jaguars

This is absolutely NOT a copper nickel specimen, so give that thought a rest. I have many OMS copper nickel including farthings, halfpennies and pennies of the 20th C. and they do not appear at all similar.
Also,the coin in question is graded VF 20BN - the BN stands for Brown and copper nickel is not designated as such.

MasonG

@Dewlynn59 said:
I just received the metallic composition analysis from pcgs, this coin is 96.6%, cooper.1.2%zinc and 3.3% stannum.

Copper, zinc and tin- there's no nickel in the coin. How can it be "cupra-nickle"?

Dewlynn59

@MasonG said:

@Dewlynn59 said:
I just received the metallic composition analysis from pcgs, this coin is 96.6%, cooper.1.2%zinc and 3.3% stannum.

Copper, zinc and tin- there's no nickel in the coin. How can it be "cupra-nickle"?

I stand corrected.> @7Jaguars said:

This is absolutely NOT a copper nickel specimen, so give that thought a rest. I have many OMS copper nickel including farthings, halfpennies and pennies of the 20th C. and they do not appear at all similar.
Also,the coin in question is graded VF 20BN - the BN stands for Brown and copper nickel is not designated as such.

This coin is 95% copper, when it should be bronze. No bronze found.> @ajaan said:

How much does it cost to have PCGS do a metallic composition analysis on a coin?

I have no idea. It was free for me.

Dewlynn59

@Dewlynn59 said:

@MasonG said:

@Dewlynn59 said:
I just received the metallic composition analysis from pcgs, this coin is 96.6%, cooper.1.2%zinc and 3.3% stannum.

Copper, zinc and tin- there's no nickel in the coin. How can it be "cupra-nickle"?

I stand corrected.> @7Jaguars said:

This is absolutely NOT a copper nickel specimen, so give that thought a rest. I have many OMS copper nickel including farthings, halfpennies and pennies of the 20th C. and they do not appear at all similar.
Also,the coin in question is graded VF 20BN - the BN stands for Brown and copper nickel is not designated as such.

This coin is 95% copper, when it should be bronze. No bronze found.> @ajaan said:

How much does it cost to have PCGS do a metallic composition analysis on a coin?

I have no idea. It was free for me.

This coin is not bronze,> @MasonG said:

How did you determine it's cupra-nickle?

Thinking to fast before I got it tested.

Dewlynn59

@MasonG said:

@Dewlynn59 said:
I just received the metallic composition analysis from pcgs, this coin is 96.6%, cooper.1.2%zinc and 3.3% stannum.

Copper, zinc and tin- there's no nickel in the coin. How can it be "cupra-nickle"?

No bronze found, now what.

MasonG

@Dewlynn59 said:
No bronze found, now what.

Copper, zinc and tin are elements, bronze is not. Bronze consists of copper, zinc and tin. Your coin's composition was identified to be copper, zinc and tin- therefore, it's bronze.

edited to add... Lincoln cents minted up to 1982 were bronze. They contained 95% copper with the remaining 5% being zinc and tin.

Sapyx

"Bronze" is not an element, it is an alloy. As such, "bronze" will never appear in an elemental analysis report of a piece of bronze. If you analyse a typical bronze coin, it will give an analysis of 95% copper, 5% other elements (typically tin and/or zinc), just like your coin. Check Wikipedia if you don't believe us: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze

Your coin is bronze. A perfectly normal, bronze 1919 no-mintmark British penny. Worth a dollar or so in that condition.

syl

Dewlynn59 ... WoW! You just want to go down swinging even though numerous folks here have tried to set you straight. As you have been told by many so far .. bronze is an ALLOY, not an element and is a refined mixture of copper, zinc and a small amount of tin. Bronze is an alloy just like steel, which is an alloy of iron and any number of other elements, and just like brass is an alloy of copper, tin and a small amount of zinc. Bronze is usually at least 90% copper and heavy with zinc. Brass is usually over 60% copper(but less than 90%) and heavy with tin, but usually some zinc as well. Brass and bronze are essentially made of the same elements heavy in copper, but just different percentages ... zinc is the main other element in bronze and brass is the one heavier in tin. There is a big difference in the specific definition of an alloy and an element.

There are more than 20 different alloys that can be classified as "bronze", depending on what it's use will be and the actual elements (or pure metals) that are in the alloy. It could be for coins, plaques, statues, bells, castings, ship propellers, etc. Each would have a different alloy composition, but any analysis would not include any component as "bronze". It would just list all the elements that made up the final alloy. BTW, there are over 60 different alloys that are classified as "brass" .. each with different percentage make-up. As said by others, you have a $1, at best, common bronze penny.

Dewlynn59

It’s material isn’t meet the standard for the coins of that error.

Dewlynn59

I still stand. It’s a (Discovery Coin).

JBK

1) why doesn't the slab say "discovery coin"?

2) why doesn't the slab state that it is an off metal error?

3) have you looked up the definition of the word "bronze"? (Hint, it is an alloy that contains 95% copper).

7Jaguars

Yikes, we have about beat this to death.

IT IS NOT A DISCOVERY COIN AND IS OF STANDARD COMPOSITION, and IS BRONZE (an alloy as stated).

syl

My heavens ... Even after 6 months or more of him riding his dead horse, he still keeps flailing his misconception that it's something special. Not only does Dewlynn not understand the definition of the word "alloy", I'm not sure that he can even spell it. I'm sure that he's still searching the Scientific periodic table of elements to find "bronze" on there along with iron, carbon, copper, tin and zinc.

WCC

This thread reminds me of the one for the "matte finish" FDR dime. The replies are contrary to the OP's personal preference, so all must be wrong.

If PCGS already graded it and the label says what the OP wants it to say, why is it necessary to come on here and try to convince anyone of it? This isn't the BST forum and even if it's what the OP claims it is, the coin isn't remotely interesting enough to be worth $2MM or even a low fraction of this value with so much wear.

syl

What I find amusing is that the OP has already spent enough money with the cert and the XRF to buy 100 of the exact same coin with the exact same alloy that he's so adamant about. Wow ... go figure!

Oldhoopster

From 1852-1922, the standard composition of the British penny was 95% copper, 4% tin, and 1% Zinc. This alloy is a type of bronze

http://www.coins-of-the-uk.co.uk/penny.html

Your coin was minted on a normal planchet, it is not a compositional error

JBK

Somehow I don't think they will listen.

They passed into troll territory a long time ago.

realeswatcher

This whole thread is honestly a worse look for the people who are REPLYING to it.

Oh, dayum it, now I replied!!! So stupid... STUPID!!

syl

Well, we just don't want some newbie to actually get sucked in to believing the OP.

syl

Maybe he got tired of being told he was wrong

wybrit