@92vette said:
1/7/11 greysheet bids spot gold basis $1378.50. Prices ranged from $815 for A Harrison PR to $1200 for J Tyler unc.
7/8/11 greysheet bids spot gold basis $1512.30. Prices ranged from $1225 for S polk PR to $1950 for J Tyler unc with 08 liberty unc spouses at $1625 and $1725. Twenty different coins above $1200. These bids were for raw coins and held until august '11.
Short lived spike like that looks more like a promotional buy by a marketing group than collector interest. In a thin market, if one of the TV guys put out a buy for a couple hundred coins, that's what you'd see happen.
The last several years have given ample opportunity for a dealer(s) to compile enough spouses to stage another promotion. Pr and unc liberty 08 spouses rose steadily from summer 09 to summer '11. Julia uncs could be had for $720 in june '10.
@92vette said:
1/7/11 greysheet bids spot gold basis $1378.50. Prices ranged from $815 for A Harrison PR to $1200 for J Tyler unc.
7/8/11 greysheet bids spot gold basis $1512.30. Prices ranged from $1225 for S polk PR to $1950 for J Tyler unc with 08 liberty unc spouses at $1625 and $1725. Twenty different coins above $1200. These bids were for raw coins and held until august '11.
Short lived spike like that looks more like a promotional buy by a marketing group than collector interest. In a thin market, if one of the TV guys put out a buy for a couple hundred coins, that's what you'd see happen.
The last several years have given ample opportunity for a dealer(s) to compile enough spouses to stage another promotion. Pr and unc liberty 08 spouses rose steadily from summer 09 to summer '11. Julia uncs could be had for $720 in june '10.
They run promos when they have promos to run. If they got buried in 2012, why would they bother? They also have to think that's something to promote.
Saw the same price action in 09 cents back in 2008/2009 and circ barbers rolls a couple of years ago.
“but a spouse coin in 70FS is selling at auction tonight for what might well be a World record price.
the "70" game is too speculative and too risky. I see it as an opportunity to lose money.”
It’s hard to argue with you keets at $9,500.00/oz. !!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
i can't really complain about the first spouse coins, i bought 10-2007 Martha Washington proofs for 430 and 10 uncirculated for 410 dollars straight from the mint, thinking the first year of issue would do well, they did ok anyway for me due to the high spot price of gold now
Many collectors who do not know better, simply take a torch and make their own bars
They completely forget that selling these bars still involves the bars to be drilled and assayed.
they usually think because all the coins were 92 % their own bars will also be 92 5....
big, costly mistake......the asseyer also needs to be paid and impurities also have a weight.
@wondercoin said:
Gold miners... are we witnessing the beginning of the PCGS SPOUSE 70FS bull market? Wondercoin
I think these will continue to improve gradually over time. I also think there will be some increased interest when some new ones show up in a few years.
@DCW said:
Why would people feel the need to melt coins that are stamped with their metal content and weight?
Especially when they are 0.999> @jmlanzaf said:
So, let me get this straight: Gold has been sitting in the 1700s for months. It breaches 1800 which is a grand total of 5% higher and suddenly everyone wants to melt.
Both premises of the OP are ludicrous:
1. There is no greater interest in melting today than there was on January 1st.
2. The least popular form of U.S. gold with low mintages is statistically unlikely to hit the melting pot. If it did, it remains the least popular form of U.S. gold.
Many people will hold losing investment in the hope that 1 day prices will rise to where they can at least break even. You see it in stocks, coins and almost all types of investments. It is human nature.........people just hate to sell things for less than they paid.
$1,800 or so is close to the last peak in gold from 2011-2012 (Check 10 year gold chart)
For many this is the first time in 8-9 years to re-capture those highs. It also represents a nice round $900 per 1/2 oz. for spouses..........people like round numbers.
As I said $1,800 is the start and melting of non MS/PR70 spouse will only accelerate if gold moves further toward $2,000. I believe there are a lot of spouse holders who have been waiting for $900-$1,000 per coin to sell or for $5 commemorative to reach $450-$500.
And yes the spouse gold and $5 commemorate coins in general are currently unpopular. With the fixation on MS/PR70 coins I would venture almost all MS/PR69 and lower coins are at risk if gold holds or prices rise further..........
@ballistic_kennedy said:
I loved buying the commemoratives at or under spot. Hopefully those days are not gone.
They may well be gone. On the auction venues,I use, I have noticed the higher prices that have been realized are not drawing out more pieces. In fact as of late, considerably fewer pieces with bullion related prices almost impossible to find. Slabbed MS and PR 70's were fairly easy to purchase even slightly under bullion, but no more!
@2manycoins2fewfunds said:
The impact from melting can have a significant impact on some of these moderns as total populations are low typically 5,000 or less.
This discussion relates only to modern non classic coins and only those MS/PR69 or lower.
Just for fun look at SOLD/COMPLETED auctions on Ebay for "spouse $10 gold -70"
A lot go for well under spot when fees are considered..............
Even 10 of something that 5 people want is a supply gut.
Look at the classic commems that have mintages of 3000
@2manycoins2fewfunds said:
The impact from melting can have a significant impact on some of these moderns as total populations are low typically 5,000 or less.
This discussion relates only to modern non classic coins and only those MS/PR69 or lower.
Just for fun look at SOLD/COMPLETED auctions on Ebay for "spouse $10 gold -70"
A lot go for well under spot when fees are considered..............
Even 10 of something that 5 people want is a supply gut.
Look at the classic commems that have mintages of 3000
@2manycoins2fewfunds said:
The impact from melting can have a significant impact on some of these moderns as total populations are low typically 5,000 or less.
This discussion relates only to modern non classic coins and only those MS/PR69 or lower.
Just for fun look at SOLD/COMPLETED auctions on Ebay for "spouse $10 gold -70"
A lot go for well under spot when fees are considered..............
Even 10 of something that 5 people want is a supply gut.
Look at the classic commems that have mintages of 3000
@2manycoins2fewfunds said:
The impact from melting can have a significant impact on some of these moderns as total populations are low typically 5,000 or less.
This discussion relates only to modern non classic coins and only those MS/PR69 or lower.
Just for fun look at SOLD/COMPLETED auctions on Ebay for "spouse $10 gold -70"
A lot go for well under spot when fees are considered..............
Even 10 of something that 5 people want is a supply gut.
Look at the classic commems that have mintages of 3000
I believe for almost all bullion coins, with all the fees and taxes tacked on, a good B&M dealer is well worth considering when selling. Two or three per cent off spot, and cash today!
@keets said: but a spouse coin in 70FS is selling at auction tonight for what might well be a World record price.
the "70" game is too speculative and too risky. I see it as an opportunity to lose money.
I am almost certain I bid early on this very coin. I do not have it and would like to have it in my set, But alas there are others that desire it a lot more!
It may take some time but there are many example where posted original mintages are known to poorly reflect surviving numbers. Value is a product of demand in relation to current available supply not original mintage..
In time we may be in a world where almost all available examples of some moderns are only MS/PR70s.
Whether in that world there is an increased numismatic premium.............well only time will tell...................
@DCW said:
Why would people feel the need to melt coins that are stamped with their metal content and weight?
Partly because the premium is higher on new, novelty items with pretty girls, birds, skulls and zombies, dragons, horses, race cars, beer, anything but a first spouse or some obscure clip art motif.
The profit from refining, minting, and distribution exceeds the cost.
Or another way to ask it, “Why would anyone want a half oz gold coin with Edith Wilson on it?”
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
Many Dealers will look at the wholesale market. Right now their are big wholesales with buy prices on First Spouses of Melt. Not need to smelt something if you can get more from a big wholesaler. Of course some dealers might think it is not worth the couple extra bucks and just send it to the refiner.
While the majority of the First Spouses are more appealing with the reverse sides up, it is certainly not the case with the Liberty subset.
The proofs display very attractively. The uncirculateds not as much, but all are great tributes to the classic coins.
That would be an even better reason to melt them down. No additional refining cost because it’s not 90% gold it’s pure to 4 9s
Yes, but it's already 0.999 and assayed and certified.
You are thinking in terms of gold as being a store of value for investment when it has so many other uses including jewelry, dental and industrial.
I can bring my Betty Ford uncirculated first spouse coin to my local coin store and I bet I don’t even get melt for it. They can throw a price tag on it and try to sell it but it won’t move because nobody wants them as collectibles. So off to the smelter it will go. It will live again as jewelry or circuit boards or who knows what.
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
Let’s not forget just how magical gold really is. I was fortunate enough to see this bronze sword in a gold hilt in the Athens Museum. The hilt looked like it had been cast yesterday.
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
That would be an even better reason to melt them down. No additional refining cost because it’s not 90% gold it’s pure to 4 9s
Yes, but it's already 0.999 and assayed and certified.
You are thinking in terms of gold as being a store of value for investment when it has so many other uses including jewelry, dental and industrial.
I can bring my Betty Ford uncirculated first spouse coin to my local coin store and I bet I don’t even get melt for it. They can throw a price tag on it and try to sell it but it won’t move because nobody wants them as collectibles. So off to the smelter it will go. It will live again as jewelry or circuit boards or who knows what.
You're thinking that everything that can get smelted does. You only melt what makes it MORE salable. It costs money to melt. It is very easy to sell a 24k coin, even to a jeweler. Very few ever get melted.
Comments
Gold miners... are we witnessing the beginning of the PCGS SPOUSE 70FS bull market? Wondercoin
The last several years have given ample opportunity for a dealer(s) to compile enough spouses to stage another promotion. Pr and unc liberty 08 spouses rose steadily from summer 09 to summer '11. Julia uncs could be had for $720 in june '10.
They run promos when they have promos to run. If they got buried in 2012, why would they bother? They also have to think that's something to promote.
Saw the same price action in 09 cents back in 2008/2009 and circ barbers rolls a couple of years ago.
but a spouse coin in 70FS is selling at auction tonight for what might well be a World record price.
the "70" game is too speculative and too risky. I see it as an opportunity to lose money.
The next time you find yourself asking where are all the collectors for classic commems, think 70 spouse commems!
“2009-W First Spouse $10 Gold Margaret Taylor. First Strike PCGS Proof-70 DCAM
Bid history: 52 bids (view)
Time left: Ended”
Winning bidder: bidder 10
GC Item ID: 856903
It looks like it sold for around $9,500.00 by the oz. tonight at GC!
Wondercoin
“but a spouse coin in 70FS is selling at auction tonight for what might well be a World record price.
the "70" game is too speculative and too risky. I see it as an opportunity to lose money.”
It’s hard to argue with you keets at $9,500.00/oz. !!
Wondercoin
There are 74 examples of this coin in FS 70 PR DCAM, did I read this correctly in the pop report?
Well, if that’s the case there’s a few on eBay for around $1200.
i can't really complain about the first spouse coins, i bought 10-2007 Martha Washington proofs for 430 and 10 uncirculated for 410 dollars straight from the mint, thinking the first year of issue would do well, they did ok anyway for me due to the high spot price of gold now
Many collectors who do not know better, simply take a torch and make their own bars
They completely forget that selling these bars still involves the bars to be drilled and assayed.
they usually think because all the coins were 92 % their own bars will also be 92 5....
big, costly mistake......the asseyer also needs to be paid and impurities also have a weight.
I think these will continue to improve gradually over time. I also think there will be some increased interest when some new ones show up in a few years.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
..............................................................................................................................
Many people will hold losing investment in the hope that 1 day prices will rise to where they can at least break even. You see it in stocks, coins and almost all types of investments. It is human nature.........people just hate to sell things for less than they paid.
$1,800 or so is close to the last peak in gold from 2011-2012 (Check 10 year gold chart)
For many this is the first time in 8-9 years to re-capture those highs. It also represents a nice round $900 per 1/2 oz. for spouses..........people like round numbers.
As I said $1,800 is the start and melting of non MS/PR70 spouse will only accelerate if gold moves further toward $2,000. I believe there are a lot of spouse holders who have been waiting for $900-$1,000 per coin to sell or for $5 commemorative to reach $450-$500.
And yes the spouse gold and $5 commemorate coins in general are currently unpopular. With the fixation on MS/PR70 coins I would venture almost all MS/PR69 and lower coins are at risk if gold holds or prices rise further..........
Did I just read that “MilesWaits” bought a $71 Orange PCGS box on eBay to house his $9,500/oz. Gold spouse coin?
Wondercoin
They may well be gone. On the auction venues,I use, I have noticed the higher prices that have been realized are not drawing out more pieces. In fact as of late, considerably fewer pieces with bullion related prices almost impossible to find. Slabbed MS and PR 70's were fairly easy to purchase even slightly under bullion, but no more!
I believe for almost all bullion coins, with all the fees and taxes tacked on, a good B&M dealer is well worth considering when selling. Two or three per cent off spot, and cash today!
I am almost certain I bid early on this very coin. I do not have it and would like to have it in my set, But alas there are others that desire it a lot more!
As the esteemed David Poole once said...
“It's amazing the things people would rather have than money.”
Or was that Garfield?
Wondercoin
It may take some time but there are many example where posted original mintages are known to poorly reflect surviving numbers. Value is a product of demand in relation to current available supply not original mintage..
In time we may be in a world where almost all available examples of some moderns are only MS/PR70s.
Whether in that world there is an increased numismatic premium.............well only time will tell...................
@2manycoins2fewfunds
This.
Plus the fact that unless you collect the coins being melted, it's of no consequence to anyone.
I knew it would happen.
Or another way to ask it, “Why would anyone want a half oz gold coin with Edith Wilson on it?”
That would be an even better reason to melt them down. No additional refining cost because it’s not 90% gold it’s pure to 4 9s
Many Dealers will look at the wholesale market. Right now their are big wholesales with buy prices on First Spouses of Melt. Not need to smelt something if you can get more from a big wholesaler. Of course some dealers might think it is not worth the couple extra bucks and just send it to the refiner.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
At least he didn't buy a $71 box to house a $15 coin.
Yes, but it's already 0.999 and assayed and certified.
While the majority of the First Spouses are more appealing with the reverse sides up, it is certainly not the case with the Liberty subset.
The proofs display very attractively. The uncirculateds not as much, but all are great tributes to the classic coins.
You are thinking in terms of gold as being a store of value for investment when it has so many other uses including jewelry, dental and industrial.
I can bring my Betty Ford uncirculated first spouse coin to my local coin store and I bet I don’t even get melt for it. They can throw a price tag on it and try to sell it but it won’t move because nobody wants them as collectibles. So off to the smelter it will go. It will live again as jewelry or circuit boards or who knows what.
Let’s not forget just how magical gold really is. I was fortunate enough to see this bronze sword in a gold hilt in the Athens Museum. The hilt looked like it had been cast yesterday.
I always thought if nothing else some of the uncirculated liberty subsets would make a fantastic pendant.
You're thinking that everything that can get smelted does. You only melt what makes it MORE salable. It costs money to melt. It is very easy to sell a 24k coin, even to a jeweler. Very few ever get melted.
Gold was $1,800 when I posted this and melting pot was just warming up.
Now it is glowing red.
Be honest............who has or will be sending MS/PR 69 and lower modern gold to be scraped?
I've got 15+ oz to go in next day or so.............. $5 commemoratives and spouses.
Even if spouse is 24K I'd rather hold Buffalos than forgotten FSs.
Agreed, anything commemorative or spousal or just ugly Gold is out the door and to the smelter.
None of which applies for the Buffs.
Mad with gold fever the crowd is yelling "Burn the witches!'