incuse strike doubling becomes actual doubling?

LanceNewmanOCC

do you see what i see?

images courtesy of pcgs

will post a link to the coin/page at a later time if needed.

for convenience - https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/a6/fdn2kvtrpq08.jpg

Crypto

F looks doubled but i bet is more likely a trick of the shadows and metal flow

ChrisH821

Yes, incuse features on a mechanical doubled coin look like a proper doubled die. There was a discussion about it regarding a state quarter here a few years ago. That is a nice example of it!

LanceNewmanOCC

@ChrisH821 said:
Yes, incuse features on a mechanical doubled coin look like a proper doubled die. There was a discussion about it regarding a state quarter here a few years ago. That is a nice example of it!

was it the one with @coinsarefun and the rim lettering? - if so, that was rough on my eyes and brain without having examples in-hand but i could brute-force my brain to grasp it from all the MANY ddo/ddr/tdr/md etc that i'm sure we've all seen and the many effects from lighting.

this particular example makes me ponder ejection doubling vs die bounce/strike doubling. ejection wouldn't allow a second F so clean, especially and incuse one.

not certain where this is supposed to go but a seed has been planted.

ironically, i have an image of an example of a high grade buff where the F has the metal scrape/push on the F like one would expect to see from ejection doubling, not bounce whereas the date on the 1916 looks strike doubled with no metal scrape lines somewhat similar to flow lines we see on so many coins.

i'm inclined to call this one die bounce due to the F, not ejection.

ChrisH821

That was the one.
Good point about die bounce vs. ejection doubling... you would expect a scrape effect from ejection doubling. This definitely looks like the die hit the coin a second time, squishing the 6:00 facing areas of relief and imparting an additional F.

Jimnight

@ChrisH821 said:
That was the one.
Good point about die bounce vs. ejection doubling... you would expect a scrape effect from ejection doubling. This definitely looks like the die hit the coin a second time, squishing the 6:00 facing areas of relief and imparting an additional F.

The one also in 16.

coinsarefun

Yeah, I remember that one Lance. I have to look and see if I still
have any images.

LanceNewmanOCC

this probably isn't the best example to show the possible difference is cause but it is with the original group of images that set me off down this path so i'll use it, plus it is from a high point from that part of the die; which is amazing we don't see more no F because that thin, feeble little F should have been broken off much more, imo. a conversation for another day.

messydesk

The rules about appearance of doubled dies vs. machine doubling are reversed for incuse designs. The letters of LIBERTY on many 1878 Morgan dollars show doubling that behaves like machine doubling, but is really a doubled die.

LanceNewmanOCC

@messydesk said:
The rules about appearance of doubled dies vs. machine doubling are reversed for incuse designs.

do you see Liberty with what you would call machine doubling, of any variety. since you inspect so many up-close. perhaps even hub doubling which i've seen Wiles refer to on his various series so many times and this doubling is official but not really recognized with FS designations.

i've seen many a liberty doubled, especially from the 1878 series and many don't appear as official doubled die doubling but alas, they are.

LanceNewmanOCC

@Crypto said:
F looks doubled but i bet is more likely a trick of the shadows and metal flow

i think if my mind is working right, the F is a positive on the die while most if not all the rest of the design in negative, SO, when a positive on a die has die bounce, it has in effect, created a secondary element instead of smooshing it like with the other parts of the devices that aren't also positive on the die (negative on the coin aka incuse).

those indian coins would actually look pretty neat (i think) with a strong bounce with good rotation like we see on cbh.

edited to add:

there is some implication/explanation about missing designer initials here. with the initials sometimes being positive, missing FG, AW, F etc i bet the piece broke off (maybe polished?) which means somewhere out there, there are little pieces and/or whole designer initials die pieces. wouldn't it be fun to find a struck through initial letter and/or stuck in a coin?