1602 Scotland Sword & Scepter questions
DennisH
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1 – Does anyone know what the as-issued denomination of these gold coins was? I have a hunch it was 120 shillings.
2 – How many shillings were in a pound back then?
When in doubt, don't.
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It was 120 Scots shillings which were tariffed at £1 Scots = £1 English. 120/- Scots = £6 Scots = 10/- English. For a few years late in the 17th century the tenor changed to 13/- =1/- English, but prior to the Union it was adjusted back to 12:1.
Thank you very much!
@SaorAlba, did you mean £12 Scots = £1 English?
Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
American Numismatic Society
New York City
Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
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Good catch, the coinage from Queen Mary through James VI is very complex, James VI had eight different coinages - it spins thoughts sometime. Actually I have it all charted, but there were multiple systems of coinage emanating from the mint in Edinburgh then depending on how the wind blew. My favourite coin from that era is a so called Thistle Noble from 1588 which in Scots shillings at the moment tariffed at 146/8 or 11 Merks. A Merk is 13 shillings 4 pence. The only Scots gold scarcer than that is the 1576 £20 which I am not daring enough to risk the rath of my wife for daring to purchase like I went through with the Thistle Noble back in 2009.
@SaorAlba, I just came across this in the 1888 American Journal of Numismatics, which I don't believe to be true. It says that Scottish and English currency were the equivalent until 1603, but I'm fairly certain that the former was on a downward spiral for a few centuries, and officially settled at 12:1 with the 1603 Union of the Crowns, right?
Also, I know that the merk was worth 14/ Scots at one point, was this when the ratio was 13:1? Or was the 14/ value and the 13:1 ratio mutually exclusive?
It is very complex, indeed! For contemporaries it must have been a headache and a constant threat of possibly being ripped off (or ripping yourself off) through misinformation. For present-day numismatists, however, it's an enjoyable sort of complexity.
Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
American Numismatic Society
New York City
Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!
@JesseKraft Inasmuch as I love Scotland of course, the monarchs from David II(1329-71) onwards continually debased, lightened the coinage so much so that by 1603 the Scots £ was worth 12:1 vs the English £. The only period of real debasement of Anglish booty was during the reign of "Old Coppernose" Henry VIII, the debasements continued through the reign of Queen Mary(1554-1558) The statement of their being their having been equal really wasn't true after 1360's as Scotland began debasing and lightening coinage. The David II coinages are divided into "heavy" ie early, and "light" later in the reign. The "heavy" coins are a bit scarce.
We all know that Queen Elizabeth was a remarkably well loved monarch by her subjects - well her advisor, Thomas Gresham, was a believer in sound money - ie sterling coinage of full weight and fineness.
Copper made it's appearance in coinage in Scotland in the mid 15th century during the reign of James II(1437-1460), it did not appear for regal coinage in England until the 1660's with bronze farthings.
@SaorAlba. Agreed. If the coinage immediately dropped to 1/12th it's former value, I'm sure that individuals would have pushed back greatly. People have revolted over less in the past.
Ah, yes. Gresham's law.
Admittedly, Scottish coinage isn't my area of expertise, but I enjoy all avenues of numismatics, so always happy to learn more. I do have a soft spot for Scotland, however. My first experience abroad was to this wonderful country. I loved every second of it and met some truly great individuals (one of whom I still occasionally converse with. He identifies as a Pict and was a true philosopher. One of my favorite people out there.)
Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
American Numismatic Society
New York City
Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!
My ancestry is from there, all the times I have been to Europe though, only ever flown over Scotland. I lived in Ukraine for a bit 10 years ago. My most focused collecting is Scots coins and some older very rare banknotes.