Rights an Honour of Scotland

mamieopa

I do not really understand the arguments of this medal. A British Flag, a Scottish Flag, Edward VII becoming Edward I. Only a Scot can help.

TwoKopeiki

Nice. Very opinionated medal - would love to hear more about it.

ajaan

@Hussulo is from Scotland

carabonnair

Sorry, not a Scot, but I'll try-
The argument that Edward VI was king of England only, not Great Britain. So the name "Edward VII" would be disrespectful to the Scots.
When James VI of Scotland became king of a united Britain, he was referred as James I. So their argument is the new king should be Edward I, not Edward VII.

mamieopa

@carabonnair said:
Sorry, not a Scot, but I'll try-
The argument that Edward VI was king of England only, not Great Britain. So the name "Edward VII" would be disrespectful to the Scots.
When James VI of Scotland became king of a united Britain, he was referred as James I. So their argument is the new king should be Edward I, not Edward VII.

I Think, you have got it! Thank You.

Namvet69

So that's the rub. Makes sense to me. It's all about royal titles. Not like it's a demotion! Peace Roy

colincmr2

I read your thread title in a Glaswegian accent ''Rights an Honour of Scotland''. An interesting middling voice of Scottish nationalism within the larger context of union. Do you know much around the group who issued it?

SaorAlba

It is still an issue to this day. Queen Elizabeth is not really QEII, the United Kingdom has only ever had one Queen Elizabeth - the current monarch. The Queen Elizabeth who ruled from 1558-1603 was the queen of England only. There was no United Kingdom until James VI(1567-1625) of Scotland became James I (1603-1625) of the United Kingdom of Great Britain in 1603.

In 2002 Royal Bank of Scotland issued a one pound note commemorating Queen Elizabeth's golden jubilee she is referred to as Elizabeth - not Elizabeth II.

But...

Charles II of Scotland was also Charles II of the United Kingdom, so no problem. But then his brother became king on his death and was James VII of Scotland and James II of the United Kingdom and his coins from Scotland have his regnal order as II not VII as it should have been.

Then he was deposed from the throne in 1689 and his son in law William became William III - of Scotland and the United Kingdom since both kingdoms had two previous King Williams, in the 11th and 12th centuries.

So the contention really is with James VII(II) and Elizabeth II(I). Fortunately none of the present heirs to the throne have indicated any desire to use James or Elizabeth as their regnal name. Prince Charles if he so chooses to reign under his given name will be King Charles III - both of Scotland and the United Kingdom. Prince William if he chooses his given name will be King William V of Scotland and the United Kingdom.

That is, if Scotland doesn't bolt from the United Kingdom as a result of the Brexit. So you see, just not that easy.

WillieBoyd2

A similar situation occurred in Austria:

From 1835 to 1848 Ferdinand I was king of Austria and was also king of Bohemia under the name Ferdinand V.

Austria issued this coin with both of his titles.

Austria 20 Kreuzer (Zwanziger) 1848
Silver, 26.0 mm, 6.65 gm, 0.583 fine, Vienna Mint
Catalog: Krause World Coins 1801-1900 number KM 2208, minted from 1837 to 1848

Obverse:
Ferdinand facing right
FERD.I.D.G.AVSTR.IMP.HVNG.BOH.R.H.N.V.
(Ferdinand I By the Grace of God Austria Imperator Hungary Bohemia King)
The inscription "BOH.R.H.N.V." is "Bohemia Rex Hujus Nominis Quintus", a Latin phrase meaning Bohemia King named the fifth.

Reverse:
Crowned shield of Austria
REX.LOMB.ET.VEN.DALM.GAL.LOD.ILL.A.A.
King Lombardy Venice Dalmatia Galicia Lodomeria Lllyria Archduke of Austria

The zwanziger is an Austrian coin which circulated in California during the Gold Rush period of the 1840's and 1850's.

mamieopa

@colincmr2 said:
I read your thread title in a Glaswegian accent ''Rights an Honour of Scotland''. An interesting middling voice of Scottish nationalism within the larger context of union. Do you know much around the group who issued it?

I missed the d on and. Sorry, I am German, living in France. I once met a lot of scottish people when I was working for a few months in the Manor House Hospital in London NW. That was in 1964.

mamieopa

@SaorAlba said:
It is still an issue to this day. Queen Elizabeth is not really QEII, the United Kingdom has only ever had one Queen Elizabeth - the current monarch. The Queen Elizabeth who ruled from 1558-1603 was the queen of England only. There was no United Kingdom until James VI(1567-1625) of Scotland became James I (1603-1625) of the United Kingdom of Great Britain in 1603.

In 2002 Royal Bank of Scotland issued a one pound note commemorating Queen Elizabeth's golden jubilee she is referred to as Elizabeth - not Elizabeth II.

But...

Charles II of Scotland was also Charles II of the United Kingdom, so no problem. But then his brother became king on his death and was James VII of Scotland and James II of the United Kingdom and his coins from Scotland have his regnal order as II not VII as it should have been.

Then he was deposed from the throne in 1689 and his son in law William became William III - of Scotland and the United Kingdom since both kingdoms had two previous King Williams, in the 11th and 12th centuries.

So the contention really is with James VII(II) and Elizabeth II(I). Fortunately none of the present heirs to the throne have indicated any desire to use James or Elizabeth as their regnal name. Prince Charles if he so chooses to reign under his given name will be King Charles III - both of Scotland and the United Kingdom. Prince William if he chooses his given name will be King William V of Scotland and the United Kingdom.

That is, if Scotland doesn't bolt from the United Kingdom as a result of the Brexit. So you see, just not that easy.

Now this medal gets a better understanding. I am quite happy about the result of my discussion. Many thanks.

mamieopa

@WillieBoyd2 said:
A similar situation occurred in Austria:

From 1835 to 1848 Ferdinand I was king of Austria and was also king of Bohemia under the name Ferdinand V.

Austria issued this coin with both of his titles.

Austria 20 Kreuzer (Zwanziger) 1848
Silver, 26.0 mm, 6.65 gm, 0.583 fine, Vienna Mint
Catalog: Krause World Coins 1801-1900 number KM 2208, minted from 1837 to 1848

Obverse:
Ferdinand facing right
FERD.I.D.G.AVSTR.IMP.HVNG.BOH.R.H.N.V.
(Ferdinand I By the Grace of God Austria Imperator Hungary Bohemia King)
The inscription "BOH.R.H.N.V." is "Bohemia Rex Hujus Nominis Quintus", a Latin phrase meaning Bohemia King named the fifth.

Reverse:
Crowned shield of Austria
REX.LOMB.ET.VEN.DALM.GAL.LOD.ILL.A.A.
King Lombardy Venice Dalmatia Galicia Lodomeria Lllyria Archduke of Austria

The zwanziger is an Austrian coin which circulated in California during the Gold Rush period of the 1840's and 1850's.

Nice coin. Have a look on my Alaxander II discussion and the double headed Russian eagle. Very interesting that the silver zwanziger circulated in California during the Gold Rush. Another Austrian coin circulated very much in Northern Africa, the Maria Theresa Thaler. Lots of them where transformed in silver jewelry.

SaorAlba

@WillieBoyd2 said:
A similar situation occurred in Austria:

From 1835 to 1848 Ferdinand I was king of Austria and was also king of Bohemia under the name Ferdinand V.

That would explain why Franz Joseph(1848-1916) used the dual name. I believe one of the German noble houses had a Heinrich LXXII - yes 72!

colincmr2

@mamieopa said:
I missed the d on and. Sorry, I am German, living in France. I once met a lot of scottish people when I was working for a few months in the Manor House Hospital in London NW. That was in 1964.

No need for an apology! It was a fun typo. Cool token/mdeal, it would be interesting to find out how it arose at the time.