Thanks for the chance, still practicing and I really enjoy sharing my thoughts even if I’m way off.
I’m going to go MS65 I don’t see that many contact marks, obverse looks a touch flat on the braid running north towards the crown and from the photo it appears as though the luster runs over the devices indicating to me MS
A few other points in my grade determination, coin does have nice eye appealing color and solid rims.
@BuffaloIronTail said:
This is why I have problems grading from pictures:
Looks like discoloration on the hip and tail.
It looks indeed to be the picture, I guess.....................
Pete
Everyone has problems grading from images as they be manipulated so much. It is just a fun exercise. As I wrote above, I believe the surface luster is impaired by the tail. This is a common point for luster loss from any type of contact. In this case it is probably from compression rather than friction . We call that "stacking rub." It is a personal choice whether to ignore it or not. In most cases (especially gold Saints), it is ignored by commercial graders.
@Tom147 said:
Well, obviously I don't know how to grade Buffalos. I thought 64, PCGS. Usually within 1. Seldom miss by 2.
Your not really that far off, my pics are not very good which hinders a good guess. The rev is a week strike but with strong luster and my photo makes it look like rub, I personally think that 65 or 65+ for the nice luster is the grade.
@AngryTurtle said:
I agree with @BuffaloIronTail, and @Insider2, I also see possible rub so a conservative interpretation of the photo + strict grading gives me AU58. IMHO a market grade is MS66.
In fact, I was not going to comment on this photo since I knew it would yield a wide range of responses. I also agree with @MFeld and at this point couldn't resist responding!
Can an AU 58 actually look that good? Obviously not my series but dang, I thought strike represents half the percentage as surface preservation. Question; Which would grade higher, this coin or one with a stronger strike but with some hits and basically no luster? Just curious about a Lincoln I have.
Signed, Happy Rabbit
Distraction on head may be rub maybe not but looks MS 65+ to me. Nice color has all the nice look and centering. Tail may have rub too. I like the look but if the rub is too much it will go AU58 if not rub nice MS
@AngryTurtle said:
I agree with @BuffaloIronTail, and @Insider2, I also see possible rub so a conservative interpretation of the photo + strict grading gives me AU58. IMHO a market grade is MS66.
In fact, I was not going to comment on this photo since I knew it would yield a wide range of responses. I also agree with @MFeld and at this point couldn't resist responding!
Can an AU 58 actually look that good? Obviously not my series but dang, I thought strike represents half the percentage as surface preservation. Question; Which would grade higher, this coin or one with a stronger strike but with some hits and basically no luster? Just curious about a Lincoln I have.
Signed, Happy Rabbit
Heres how i understand it;
In strict grading wear is wear. If the coin has any it no higher than AU58. A beat up no wear coin is a MS60 , 61, 62. The problem with this is as you point out the strict AU58 is more desirable than a strict (beat up) MS60 or 62, and so would be worth more. Strike becomes a factor in the higher MS grades.
Despite what you might read in the Grading Guides, I dont think coins have been graded this way by the TPGs for decades. Instead "stacking friction" (aka wear) has become acceptable up to MS62 or 63. Strike does not really factor in much until you get to the MS65,66,67 level AFAIK. @Insider2 or @MFeld could add more I am sure and correct me if I am wrong.
On your question about the Lincoln: "Which would grade higher, this coin or one with a stronger strike but with some hits and basically no luster? Just curious about a Lincoln I have." Impaired luster would keep the Lincoln down to the MS63 level I would think. Overall luster is more important than strike in todays market, so it could even put it into AU58 or cleaned catagory.
@AngryTurtle said:
I agree with @BuffaloIronTail, and @Insider2, I also see possible rub so a conservative interpretation of the photo + strict grading gives me AU58. IMHO a market grade is MS66.
In fact, I was not going to comment on this photo since I knew it would yield a wide range of responses. I also agree with @MFeld and at this point couldn't resist responding!
Can an AU 58 actually look that good? Obviously not my series but dang, I thought strike represents half the percentage as surface preservation. Question; Which would grade higher, this coin or one with a stronger strike but with some hits and basically no luster? Just curious about a Lincoln I have.
Signed, Happy Rabbit
Show me the two coins and I’ll tell you which grades higher. The question can’t be answered in a meaningful way, otherwise, as there are too many variables.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@AngryTurtle Basically already answered my question in relation to strike, thanks. Here is my coin that was in question (pictured left).
A recent order of modern copper also taught me that neither of these will ever see a coin grading desk. @MFeld
@MFeld said:
Although I guessed 66, anything as low as 58 wouldn’t really surprise me.
If 58 to 66 is a reasonable range, it kind of makes "guess the grade" a rather pointless exercise, wouldn't you think?
Absolutely NOT. You will eventually learn that the difference between a TRUE AU-58 and a MS-65 or MS-66 has become mostly a subjective, personal evaluation. There is a story about a $20 Saint in a Federal court case back in the early 1980's that was graded AU-58 and MS-65 by knowledgeable professionals under oath while acting as expert witnesses.
IMO, GTG is very helpful as it teaches us how the "big boys" grade.
Insider2......I have always strongly agreed with your views until this last one.
Honestly, if the difference between an 58 through to an ms66 is a personal subjective evaluation, then I think it's time we all hang up our loupe and take up Canasta.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
@crazyhounddog said:
Looks 64 to me. Great strike but the luster looks subdued.
Nice Buff😉
? I see neither a great strike nor subdued luster.
Well then,
Why do you grade it 66 with a shot at 65 not seeing the great strike and somehow see better luster than I’m seeing?
The coin looks very clean and lustrous, as well as attractive. It need not be well struck for me to grade it 66, shot 65.
I haven’t looked through the thread again, but don’t recall anyone but you commenting on a great strike or subdued luster, much less, both. That was part of my confusion regarding your post.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@crazyhounddog said:
Looks 64 to me. Great strike but the luster looks subdued.
Nice Buff😉
? I see neither a great strike nor subdued luster.
Well then,
Why do you grade it 66 with a shot at 65 not seeing the great strike and somehow see better luster than I’m seeing?
The coin looks very clean and lustrous, as well as attractive. It need not be well struck for me to grade it 66, shot 65.
I haven’t looked through the thread again, but don’t recall anyone but you commenting on a great strike or subdued luster, much less, both. That was part of my confusion regarding your post.
The peripheral of the coin has bold lettering along with a very split tail, thus I say great strike. I should have mentioned the central regions, not so much.
So, what is the grade? Did I miss it?
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
@crazyhounddog said:
Looks 64 to me. Great strike but the luster looks subdued.
Nice Buff😉
? I see neither a great strike nor subdued luster.
Well then,
Why do you grade it 66 with a shot at 65 not seeing the great strike and somehow see better luster than I’m seeing?
The coin looks very clean and lustrous, as well as attractive. It need not be well struck for me to grade it 66, shot 65.
I haven’t looked through the thread again, but don’t recall anyone but you commenting on a great strike or subdued luster, much less, both. That was part of my confusion regarding your post.
The peripheral of the coin has bold lettering along with a very split tail, thus I say great strike. I should have mentioned the central regions, not so much.
So, what is the grade? Did I miss it?
MS66+
The OP revealed the grade along with his thoughts on March 3, 2020 10:16PM. Page 1 of the thread.
@AngryTurtle said:
I agree with @BuffaloIronTail, and @Insider2, I also see possible rub so a conservative interpretation of the photo + strict grading gives me AU58. IMHO a market grade is MS66.
In fact, I was not going to comment on this photo since I knew it would yield a wide range of responses. I also agree with @MFeld and at this point couldn't resist responding!
Can an AU 58 actually look that good? Obviously not my series but dang, I thought strike represents half the percentage as surface preservation. Question; Which would grade higher, this coin or one with a stronger strike but with some hits and basically no luster? Just curious about a Lincoln I have.
Signed, Happy Rabbit
@MFeld said:
Although I guessed 66, anything as low as 58 wouldn’t really surprise me.
If 58 to 66 is a reasonable range, it kind of makes "guess the grade" a rather pointless exercise, wouldn't you think?
Absolutely NOT. You will eventually learn that the difference between a TRUE AU-58 and a MS-65 or MS-66 has become mostly a subjective, personal evaluation. There is a story about a $20 Saint in a Federal court case back in the early 1980's that was graded AU-58 and MS-65 by knowledgeable professionals under oath while acting as expert witnesses.
IMO, GTG is very helpful as it teaches us how the "big boys" grade.
Insider2......I have always strongly agreed with your views until this last one.
Honestly, if the difference between an 58 through to an ms66 is a personal subjective evaluation, then I think it's time we all hang up our loupe and take up Canasta.
Have a safe trip!
I grade coins Gem Mint State all day long with a loss of luster on the high points. My TPG is 100% different than my personal grading. The point behind the tail is important for these coins. Luster can be lost because of friction or stacking. The fact is, these coins also come with full blazing luster and no breaks. I like those the best. If you are patient, they are often graded identically to coins with stacking breaks. A coin's strike is not as important as it was at one time. IMO, a few decades ago the highest this coin would grade was MS-64.
The OP's coin is wonderful. I'm not going back to look but I think I guessed it was graded MS-66. Now I'm curious. Yes, that was my guess: "Since you probably would not post an AU-58, I'll guess at least MS-66 in spite of a little weakness." This is probably the "commercial grade" I would have given it in hand.
PS ALL grading is a personal subjective opinion. The personal subjective opinions of a few professionals usually establishes the grade on the label. Another personal subjective opinion wioll get a bean on the slab.
Comments
Thanks for the chance, still practicing and I really enjoy sharing my thoughts even if I’m way off.
I’m going to go MS65 I don’t see that many contact marks, obverse looks a touch flat on the braid running north towards the crown and from the photo it appears as though the luster runs over the devices indicating to me MS
A few other points in my grade determination, coin does have nice eye appealing color and solid rims.
This is why I have problems grading from pictures:
Looks like discoloration on the hip and tail.
It looks indeed to be the picture, I guess.....................
Pete
Everyone has problems grading from images as they be manipulated so much. It is just a fun exercise. As I wrote above, I believe the surface luster is impaired by the tail. This is a common point for luster loss from any type of contact. In this case it is probably from compression rather than friction . We call that "stacking rub." It is a personal choice whether to ignore it or not. In most cases (especially gold Saints), it is ignored by commercial graders.
Well, obviously I don't know how to grade Buffalos. I thought 64, PCGS. Usually within 1. Seldom miss by 2.
Your not really that far off, my pics are not very good which hinders a good guess. The rev is a week strike but with strong luster and my photo makes it look like rub, I personally think that 65 or 65+ for the nice luster is the grade.
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Can an AU 58 actually look that good? Obviously not my series but dang, I thought strike represents half the percentage as surface preservation. Question; Which would grade higher, this coin or one with a stronger strike but with some hits and basically no luster? Just curious about a Lincoln I have.
Signed, Happy Rabbit
Distraction on head may be rub maybe not but looks MS 65+ to me. Nice color has all the nice look and centering. Tail may have rub too. I like the look but if the rub is too much it will go AU58 if not rub nice MS
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Heres how i understand it;
In strict grading wear is wear. If the coin has any it no higher than AU58. A beat up no wear coin is a MS60 , 61, 62. The problem with this is as you point out the strict AU58 is more desirable than a strict (beat up) MS60 or 62, and so would be worth more. Strike becomes a factor in the higher MS grades.
Despite what you might read in the Grading Guides, I dont think coins have been graded this way by the TPGs for decades. Instead "stacking friction" (aka wear) has become acceptable up to MS62 or 63. Strike does not really factor in much until you get to the MS65,66,67 level AFAIK.
@Insider2 or @MFeld could add more I am sure and correct me if I am wrong.
On your question about the Lincoln: "Which would grade higher, this coin or one with a stronger strike but with some hits and basically no luster? Just curious about a Lincoln I have." Impaired luster would keep the Lincoln down to the MS63 level I would think. Overall luster is more important than strike in todays market, so it could even put it into AU58 or cleaned catagory.
Show me the two coins and I’ll tell you which grades higher. The question can’t be answered in a meaningful way, otherwise, as there are too many variables.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@AngryTurtle Basically already answered my question in relation to strike, thanks. Here is my coin that was in question (pictured left).
A recent order of modern copper also taught me that neither of these will ever see a coin grading desk.
@MFeld
Well then,
Why do you grade it 66 with a shot at 65 not seeing the great strike and somehow see better luster than I’m seeing?
Insider2......I have always strongly agreed with your views until this last one.
Honestly, if the difference between an 58 through to an ms66 is a personal subjective evaluation, then I think it's time we all hang up our loupe and take up Canasta.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
The coin looks very clean and lustrous, as well as attractive. It need not be well struck for me to grade it 66, shot 65.
I haven’t looked through the thread again, but don’t recall anyone but you commenting on a great strike or subdued luster, much less, both. That was part of my confusion regarding your post.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
MS64, just does not quite reach out n grab you like a sixty five should.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
63 at best
The peripheral of the coin has bold lettering along with a very split tail, thus I say great strike. I should have mentioned the central regions, not so much.
So, what is the grade? Did I miss it?
MS66+
The OP revealed the grade along with his thoughts on March 3, 2020 10:16PM. Page 1 of the thread.
Have a safe trip!
I grade coins Gem Mint State all day long with a loss of luster on the high points. My TPG is 100% different than my personal grading. The point behind the tail is important for these coins. Luster can be lost because of friction or stacking. The fact is, these coins also come with full blazing luster and no breaks. I like those the best. If you are patient, they are often graded identically to coins with stacking breaks. A coin's strike is not as important as it was at one time. IMO, a few decades ago the highest this coin would grade was MS-64.
The OP's coin is wonderful. I'm not going back to look but I think I guessed it was graded MS-66. Now I'm curious. Yes, that was my guess: "Since you probably would not post an AU-58, I'll guess at least MS-66 in spite of a little weakness." This is probably the "commercial grade" I would have given it in hand.
PS ALL grading is a personal subjective opinion. The personal subjective opinions of a few professionals usually establishes the grade on the label. Another personal subjective opinion wioll get a bean on the slab.