Registry Regulations. What's next?

braddick

I know I probably stand alone, but I'm against PCGS placing a regulation banning Registrants from labeling their sets with "For Sale Set" and the such. Even listing prices in their Registry.
I find this distasteful- if done to an extreme by Dealers, but not 'illegal'.

With this policy now in place what is to then stop the banning of 'Not So Serious' sets- sets that are out to have a good time and not compete for the top spots?

I have a couple (ok, a dozen) Registeries that, although don't mock the coins or the Registry, do play on words and the competitive spirit.
There is more than one road to having fun with the Registry! Competing for the top is one of them (I know- I did so for awhile). Another is the hunt for unique coins that although the grade doesn't spell out a Top Registry, is an enjoyable passtime nonetheless.
Coming up with fun/creative names for the Sets and groupings of coins is also part of the enjoyment.

Now, would PCGS ban such sets if they believed it "appeared" to be in their best interests to do so?
I hope not. And, by allowing the policy that now bans sets for sale listings (and the such) I'm afraid the door is now open to doing so.

RGL

Braddick: I defer to your numismatic expertise -- I know it to be superior to mine -- but, I respectfully disagree. I speak from the position of a newbie who has just listed his first registry set, although I haunted the board a long time before that because I felt I had no right to speak without a stake. The registry, PCGS' commercial considerations aside, is an attempt to recognize collectors who thrill in the accomplishment of posting a set and/or watching it climb. For most, it's a labor of love, a collection of which they are quite proud and will not soon sell. The registry, to my understanding, is to recognize these accomplishments in collecting.

I personally take offense at attempting to use or trade on the registry as a marketing tool for sales. There are a million different spots -- even this board and the BST board -- where once can promote the availability of existing registry sets and/or coins. But, to import the profit motive to the registry itself is an affront to many collectors who love the thrill of the hunt and the acquisition; to those for whom financial considerations, while not unimportant, are not the driving concern. Want to sell your set? We all know the wide array of venues whether it be eBay, Heritage or B&M or Stack's, Teletrade, the BST board, etc. There are spots for selling. And, there are spots for collecting. And, the registry is for the former, not the latter. With all due respect and kind regards, RGL

RGL

Oops, got too wound up .. Correction: Closing should read: There are spots for selling. And, there are spots for collecting. And, the registry is for the latter, not the former. And, I believe the registry rule on small sets is not unreasonable. If you have not upgraded a largely incomplete set in a year, I do not think it a sin to boot you. If PCGS does attempt to change this rule to make it harder for small collectors to stay involved, I will stand with you in the fight, Braddick.

braddick

RGL- My point exactly. It would be almost sinful of that Dealer to use the Registry as a forum for selling his goods. It probably wouldn't take long before he realized it was a mistake to do so too.

And, you know what? I'd even speculate without the new rule in place we wouldn't see this problem much, if at all!

I wouldn't do it. You wouldn't. No Dealer I know who cares about his rep would. I just wish we were given the chance to prove we are self-policing and don't need a policy/rule to regulate us.
I know that sounds kind of strange coming from a cop but the less regulations the better when it comes to our beloved hobby. JMHO

WWBillman

I think we were given the chance and failed miserably.

andy007

I agree with you 100% Pat, what I am wondering, is where did all the rules come from? and two, is it just convenient now to apply them if they were even in place previously? Geez, no wonder the majority of people consider coin collectors nerds.

Bear

Andy - Wait till you see the next rule:everyone using the Registry will have to change their socks daily and use desinex powder in their shoes. Bear

Russ

The problem I have with it, which I alluded to in BJs thread with my comment about the book 1984, is that it sets up a situation in which neighbors are reporting neighbors (which has already started happening) and part of the criteria is "intent". Piss somebody off, and get reported with an accusation of "intent" when there is no evidence.

It is simply too Orwellian for my taste.

Russ, NCNE

WWBillman

andy007,

I think that was part of the problem. How many times has someone here said "well, its not againt the rules" to justify their or someone elses behavior?
Everyone wants to use the rules or lack of as a way out but when a rule is implemented they complain about how we don't need them.

RGL

Braddick: As a law enforcement officer -- and I salute you as I did my former superiors in the USMC -- you know there are norms of behavior, standards within which reasonable people are expected to comply. But, as you well know, there are a million miscreants out there who do not care to be respectful of others or to follow minimal rules of propriety. In those cases, and you enforce them, there are laws, which are not for the great majority, but the small minority. And, as we all know, if our lawmakers or any other group for that matter, such as PCGS, attempt to impose a standard that offends the majority's sense of fair play, it will not long last.

Do not expect me to consider it fair when a deep pocketed dealer puts together the top early Jefferson proof set from inventory or carefual acquisitions and then throws it on the registry for a few weeks to promote a sale or auction. That is an offense, and a serious one, sir, to the collectors who have toiled for years to compile the all-time finest sets for the love of it, such as Carl, Frank, BNE and others. Profit over numismatic pride? Never... take it elsewhere.

braddick

<< <i>I think we were given the chance and failed miserably. >>



Because one or possibly two sets out of 3,000++ attempted to sell coins out of it?

Statistically I wouldn't call that a failure.

-I just think we are all better than this. Another rule.
We are well mannered and schooled in right vs wrong and in determining what is unethical or uncivil behavior. I don't like someone having to now spell it out for me.
And for those who don't 'get it' and would use the Registry for their own personal gain?

I would hate to read the flames and emails he would get after doing so!

Bear

Russ - This has been a self policing Forum since its inception. From time to time , situations arise in all innocence, that must be settled by the governing authority , which is PCGS. We are not over regulated , nor has anyones honor been trodden down. If this were truly Orwells 1984 then I would have to assume my true status as dictator with the cry BEARS RULE. But I have not done so and all remains well within the Republic. A reasonably happy bear

Bcsican

I think we can do it ourselves......

GQ

I have been following this conversation for a few day and have a question......If a forum member upgrades can they offer the old coin on the forum to forum members; or can you ask for a coin you need? I always thought this was nice being someone might need it.

DOLLAR TRIUMPH.....#2 ATF PROOF SAC SET

(WELL......Maybe #63 but I hope no one is offended at my humor)

RGL

And, that is well and fine .. but not in the registry itself. Just as there is talk of a separate eBay board to export it from BST, how about another board: Registry sets/coins for sale? Clear, upfront, honest, without calling up a set of the all-time finest and seeing: "Get your No. 1 Walker Proofs, Right Here!" PCGS would have absolutely no objections to such a board, because odds are great the new owner of the set and/or coins is going to want to upgrade, thus helping to perpetuate the market for its coins. And, if we are so great at self policing, Braddick, why do we even need an outfit called PCGS? We all would comply and honor accepted grading standards, right?, without third party intervention? (And, please, do not consider that a statement that the P in PCGS stands for Perfect.)

Bear

RGL - A sensible argument , you get my" bear growl of approval".

braddick

<< <i>And, that is well and fine .. but not in the registry itself. Just as there is talk of a separate eBay board to export it from BST, how about another board: Registry sets/coins for sale? Clear, upfront, honest, without calling up a set of the all-time finest and seeing: "Get your No. 1 Walker Proofs, Right Here!" PCGS would have absolutely no objections to such a board, because odds are great the new owner of the set and/or coins is going to want to upgrade, thus helping to perpetuate the market for its coins. And, if we are so great at self policing, Braddick, why do we even need an outfit called PCGS? We all would comply and honor accepted grading standards, right?, without third party intervention? (And, please, do not consider that a statement that the P in PCGS stands for Perfect.) >>



Good point, but let's not get carried away!

RGL

I fervently hope the censors are not at work here ... bcsican just posted -- while it may run contrary to the new registry rule -- a perfectly valid opinion that was not inflammatory or offensive. But, it has disappeared. That is what I was responding to in my last post. I abhorr and will fight censorship in any form. I collect Jeffs. Jefferson said while he may disagree with what you saying, he would defend to the death your right to say it. Censorship is the stuff of small minds ... when we are scared of ideas, it is time to give up. So, what's up?

Russ

<< <i>This has been a self policing Forum since its inception. >>



Bear,

There is a big difference between self-policing, (a good thing), and setting up a system with nebulous criteria that encourages people to narc on each other.

Russ, NCNE

WWBillman

<< <i>Because one or possibly two sets out of 3,000++ attempted to sell coins out of it? Statistically I wouldn't call that a failure. I just think we are all better than this. Another rule.
We are well mannered and schooled in right vs wrong and in determining what is unethical or uncivil behavior. I don't like someone having to now spell it out for me.
And for those who don't 'get it' and would use the Registry for their own personal gain? I would hate to read the flames and emails he would get after doing so! >>


One question then. Now that the rule has been implemented everyone seems to agree that type of behavior would be inappropriate regardless of wether they feel a rule was needed or not but if you have been reading all the threads on this subject, why have so many people been defending this behavior?
Thread 1
Thread 2

RGL

My profound apologies for any accusations of censorship, be they construed against PCGS or any other party. I understand via PM that the sender deleted the posting himself, which I did not know was possible. Again, pardon my quick brick bat before exploring the facts. I hope this always to remain a forum open to the marketplace of ideas and did not intentionally mean to suggest otherwise.

RGL

My profund and deepest apologies that censorship may be rearing its ugly head on this board. I understand via PM that the poster deleted the message, himself, which I did not know to be possible. I am guilty of wielding a brick bat before the facts are known and, for that, I apologize to PCGS or any other party which I offended or implicated by my innuendo. Mea culpa.

Bear

RGL - with the power vested in me by the" Bear Assembly of Furried Creatures" I hereby grant you full and unemcumbered Pardon. Bear

RGL

Bear, I also ask for a full and complete pardon for all crimes comitted by failing to click onto the next page and thinking my apology had failed to register. Humbly yours ...

Bear

OKEY DOKEY

RGL

A Bear pardon, beautious in its simplicity and sincerity ... Thank you

BJ

OH PLEEEEESE! There's no reason to get yourselves worked up into a tizzy about this. Do you really think that we have the resources to police the registry in the manner that you have been referring to in this post? Of course not. It is you who will inform us if someone is not playing fair. That's the bottom line. Believe me, I have my hands full with other registry stuff... like 9-10 hour work days and sometimes on weekends as well. And will you turn against your neighbor? Of course not. You'll only police the ones who truly deserve to be policed. I believe in the integrity, honesty, and intelligence of the members of the set registry, and am confident that you will be able to distinguish the bad from the good. This is not 1984. This is only establishing some basic guidelines as is required in all civilized communities.

And, BTW, thanks for keeping your senses of humor alive. By the time I got to the end of this string, I was chuckling out loud.

braddick

BJ- Does it mean though that if someone dimes out another Registrant that you have the control to completely delete that set or will you simply send out an email (first) to instruct the participant to change (or delete the set himself) the set?

Bear

Now see what all of you have done. You have gone and made BJ angry. Now I will have to use all of my bear charm to get her calmed down. Now everyone be nice and stop being so grumpy. Bear

BJ

I absolutely, under no circumstances, will delete a set until the owner of the set has had ample time to respond. That has been my policy from day one, and I can't foresee ever changing it. There have been too many instances where I was fed wrong information, or when a registrant wasn't completely aware of the rules. Frankly, my dealing with 99.9% of the registrants has been nothing short of amazing. The cooperation and respect that is shown blows me away.

BJ

Hey bear, I'm not grumpy! I'm happy. Shouldn't I be? Look what I get to play with every day! It's a fine way to finish off a career, wouldn't you say? I'll be attending the Long Beach shows beginning in September. I want to meet you all!

fantasiize

Braddick,

To answer your thread's question, how about a secret handshake or a tatoo on the neck, under the hair ?

Bear

Fantasiize - I hope the tatoo under the hair doesnt say 666.

Whitewashqtr

Nothing wrong with advertising your set as #1 / #2 all-time in order to sell. Wow.. what an accomplishment to begin with and certainly deserves the value you get for being part of the all-time finest (at least with PCGS). BUT dont use the registry to do it. Advertise it somewhere else and link to the Registry.. that is fine with me. BUT to advertise in the REGISTRY ITSELF is distasteful. NO SOUP FOR YOU EITHER!!!

fantasiize

Bear,

Hold on, my head is spinning, let me check in the mirror ... darn, can see it, the pea soup got all over the mirror ... let's settle for the secret handshake then ...

Bear

fantasiize - You made a bear laugh!!!!! Thank you

leothelyon

Well, being new to the forums, I think I've read enough to understand the problem and would like to express my point of view.
Isn’t it everyone’s responsibility to promote and uphold a belief that every collector has the right to partake in the sale of any coin or collection that may improve his/her collection? I believe every dealer and collector has a responsibility to promote their hobby and PCGS, for that matter, by making any coin or collection readily available to the numismatics public eye.
This is the very meat that feeds this hobby and makes it grow. Many of you guys have become a world only unto your own. Look at the pops on the 1954-S FS Jefferson nickels, there are 10 certified, which are most likely wrong, yet the registry shows only one listed in all the collections. I have several coins that every collector has a right to when I sell.
And we have all made private sales and that's OK. But for the collector, who is waiting in the wings, may not be so quick to the whip with the forums. He may be following a basic instinct by checking the BTS boards but only to find out later that a coin he may have had his eye on has suddenly disappeared because someone perked up in a non-selling forum and sold it through some PM system. And maybe we have lost a collector. Granted the system is not perfect but at least try to make it work for the better of the hobby.

Leo

Russ

BJ,

Perhaps some clarification is in order. I have no problem whatsoever with the implementation of a rule prohibiting direct use of the registry as a sales tool; IE: Posting prices and for sale notices in one's set itself. This site is owned and operated by CU, and you and the company have every right to manage it as you see fit.

My concern is with the use of the word "intent" attached to the phrase "to sell". This, as it stands, is undefined and nebulous, and is therefore subject to abuse.

Let us say, for example, that during a discussion in one of the other forums I say something to the effect "I think after I get my second Kennedy set to 100%, I'll sell it". Then perhaps a member that I have pissed off (and, believe it or not, that could happen), decides to drop a dime on me for my "intent".

What, specifically, would be your response in a situation such as I've just outlined?

Russ, NCNE

Bear

Russ - No way someone as nice as you could ever get another Forum member pi$$ed off. While we all might disagree from time to time, we all leave such disagreements better informed and enlightened. Pleasent dreams everyone, its sleepy time for the bear.

fantasiize

Bear,

Happy hibernation.

Russ,

Wow, 1185 posts in just 2 months.

Leo,

Is your signature true ?? Got a picture of that 1/8th of $1M coin ???

BJ

Russ,

The forums are here for you to use however you see fit as long as they fall within the generally accepted guidelines. What you say here has nothing to do with what you post in the registry itself. If you say in this forum that you intend to sell your collection, that's fine. I'm not really sure why someone would get angry about that. And you can certainly go to the BST forum and list your coins item by item with a price. You can even in the BST forum, link to your set in the registry. What you cannot do is label your set within the registry itself something like "Russ's Kennedy's for Sale," you cannot put in your set description something like "This set is for sale. Call me at 999-999-9999 for my sell prices," and you cannot list prices in the comments section of the registry. It's pretty simple.

Also, bear in mind that if your set is one of the top sets and you want it to remain in the registry for all to see, you should retire it first before you start whittling it away. Remember, the registry is for collectors of collections.

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

dbldie55

Is it really the minority that feel this is so simple to understand? Seems black and white to me.

Russ

BJ,

Your original statement that had caused my concern was:



<< <i>Listing a coin(s) with the intent to sell it and/or pricing a coin(s) in the registry will not be accepted. >>



You've now clarified and expanded that perfectly. Human nature is such that without a very clear guideline there is much potential for misunderstanding. Thank you for providing that clarity.

Russ, NCNE