1807 Half Dollar - 50 over 20 - 111 or 111a? Need Help from the specialist

Windycity

Here are images of an 1807 Half with the 50 over 20. The coin has been "tooled" and it almost appears as if someone tried to get rid of the early stage die break from breast to chin of 111a - has all the die markers of 111. Any help appreciated.

LJenkins11

The die break along the stars looks like the 111a and I can see what you're referring to with regards to possible die break from the chin to breast, i.e. the "beard". Based on your photos it does look like an EDS 111a though I too look forward to the knowledgeable folks to chime in. Can you post a closer view of that chin/breast section?

Windycity

Windycity

Any Overton experts out there?

drddm

Upon closer examination it actually looks like a very early O.111b

There is a die crack through the left stars so that automatically rules out the earliest and rarest die state, O.111 prime. This example has the break in I in LIBERTY which makes it the O.111b (and not the O.111a which wouldn’t have the die break through the I), and since there is a faint die break going down across the bust to the 1 in the date (visible at the very bottom of the bust) but not towards and through the E in LIBERTY, it’s not the latest die state O.111b.

This example looks like it had a faint beard at one point but because of all the cleaning/tooling in that area, it’s no longer visible.

The first example below is the rare O.111 prime with no die cracks, especially along the left stars.

The middle example is the O.111a with a faint beard from chin to chest but no die break that extends up and through the I in LIBERTY as well as fine crack through the stars on the left.

The bottom example is the latest die state of the O.111b with the crack through the left stars now much heavier, the die break through the I in LIBERTY and through the E in LIBERTY into the cap above, as well as a much thicker beard which extends down and across the bust towards and just in front of the 1 in the date to the edge.

It’s such a shame that one would tool any example of a bearded goddess, regardless of the die state.

Dave

GoBust

I think I concur Dave, although would be easier to confirm with the coin in hand. Early 111b with die crack through the I in liberty. Complete die cracks through stars help show the die state despite all the tooling. The Overton book clearly described the 111b as early and late, but requires a die crack in the headband and the bust. I think I can make out a faint crack on the bust as well, although the plate is a little difficult to discern. No idea about the reason for tooling effects. Coin is quite damaged where the value is now. So it's a white elephant to say the least. A bearded Goddess without a beard is sort of like a Mona Lisa without a smile.

You need to if course to understand the obvious that the evolution of the crack is continuous. In writiing his treatise Overton required both a break in the headband and a break on the bust to accompany the Chin to chest break in the field. The 111b can get much later and actually go out through the cap in the latest die state examples. 111a has no die crack in headband and usually no die crack up through the eye.

Enjoy, one of my favorite die marriages of all. At one time I had seven die states. Of note, the 111 prime is not prime. It has no chin to chest break, but still has a very faint crack between star 3 and 5 in earliest die state known. Coins less than VF30 can not be evaluated for the faint crack IMHO.

astrorat

@GoBust said:
A bearded Goddess without a bread is sort of like a Mona Lisa without a smile.

I gotta remember that line!

From the OP images, the left base of the 1 seems to be more prominent than what is typically seen with the O.111 die marriage. Is it just an anomaly of the image?

Windycity

Thank you! Very helpful!!

oldUScoins

This has been a very interesting and instructive thread -thanks.