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Plus grading and CAC stickering.....a quandary of sorts
drddm
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If PCGS defines a plus as being high end for the grade, and CAC states they only sticker coins that they feel are A (high end for grade) and B (solid for the grade), but NOT C (low end for the grade), then.....
Why do some PCGS plus graded coins not receive a CAC sticker?
Does CAC believe these plus graded (high end for the grade) coins to be in the C (low end for the grade) category?
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A difference of opinions with my default always siding with PCGS.
Good question
Grading is subjective, an opinion at a point in time not an absolute. In addition grader a may like something more than grader b. Or grader a could be super picky about say spots, luster, strike, etc.
YMMV
If it doesn't CAC, it is a "C" coin. Period. It is 2 different sets of opinions, they need not agree.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Or might he feel that originality is in question?
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Presumably they might see it as a “B” coin while PCGS sees it as an “A” coin. Of course, I don’t know by what criteria CAC judges A, B, or C. From the sounds of it, it’s just one person’s opinion which seems to have a disproportionate impact on perceived value.
I can totally understand a difference in opinion, as that is obviously the case, BUT what puzzles me is that by the definition of what a plus means and which coins are considered for stickering, these opinions are on total opposite ends of the spectrum.
One says the coin is high end for the grade and the other says low end for the grade.
How can there be such a discrepancy among experts in the field of grading coins?
I’m not a big fan of plus grades. I’m even less of a fan of plus coins without stickers
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Maybe the + coin just hasn’t been to CAC yet.
Three things:
1. CAC only stickers coins its people think the consortium member dealers will want to buy SIGHT UNSEEN for the base grade (i.e., ignoring a plus).
2. How reproducible are plus grades? Does anyone really know? They seem to be marketing tools more than anything else (just like CAC stickers....).
3. Want to see a discrepancy among grading experts? Watch EAC graders argue over early coppers. There is NO real science in grading--it is an 'art' that includes an element of circular reasoning as far as commercial grading is practiced.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
that is NOT a big discrepancy. A big discrepancy is someone saying MS63 and someone saying MS65. You are talking about gradations within a single (possibly) agreed upon grade. So, I look at the coin and I say "meh...63" and then you look at it and say"wow...what a 63!"
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I would also point out that people have cracked out MS65 from PCGS to get an MS65+ to crack it out and get an MS66. That is differences of opinion from the same company. Maybe it is different graders, maybe it is the same grader on different days, but that is a much bigger difference than a slight disagreement within the same grade.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
He specifically said "did not receive" a CAC sticker. So, in the hypothetical, it had been to CAC.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
No, I don’t think that’s the issue as we’ve all seen dipped out, blast white coins with stickers, and even lightly cleaned or “soap and watered” coins as well.
Its my theory that the "+" is usually given to coins that are solid for the grade and exhibit super high luster which is something that PCGS values highly in its grading criteria. Mind you that this is just a generalization and doesn't apply to every coin with a "+" grade, but I have found it to be true often. As such CAC may not see the coin as an "A" coin in other areas of the coins grade and thus not a bean worth candidate.
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Coins that do not pass cac's acceptance are not "c" coins; they are not high end as cac perceives it. That is subjective. If you send in a coin with a surface substance that cac sees as a problem the coin could be still high end with lots of eye appeal. Cac just sees an impediment to their "money" grading. When they are challenged and decide to pull a sticker they say it was a B-, not PQ enough. I would guess that the PCGS ms65+ $20 Saint acceptance level at cac is under 10%. That shows how fussy they can choose to be.
I would imagine there are a lot of folks out there that think their plus coin that is stickered, that cac agrees with the plus. And I very seldom see them corrected on this. I don’t really believe rejects are c coins only. Just word salad imo.
My only plus coin happens to be stickered. Honestly, I find the plus grades to be annoying.
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As with all questions of grading the answer is simple.
Grading is subjective.
What’s really nice is when my grade, the TPG’s grade, the dealer’s grade, the dealer’s price and my price all coincide. That, is a beautiful thing.
I don’t understand why this surprises you. You could ask the same question about a grading company giving two different grades (with a difference of a full point or more) to the same coin at different times.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There was a letter to the editor on a blog from a coin pricing company’s website that discussed pricing cac coins with + or *.
CAC is just 1 person's opinion on how a coin should look or grade. Many disagree including Mua!
Not hard to understand since CAC does not consider the plus when assigning their sticker.
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running like a water color in the rain...."
Some that don’t sticker are doctored. Some that don’t sticker are C coins. Some that don’t sticker are over graded. Some that don’t sticker are more nuanced - such as JA rejects unc coins with friction on the cheek that others (myself included) might find acceptable if the luster is all there.
Some that don’t sticker may be JA having a bad day. It’s a lot of trust and weight given to just one person.
Nobody is required to give that trust and weight. You're free to ignore his opinion if you prefer.
That trust has been well earned over a very long period of time.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
As CAC defines them, coins that do not get stickered are "C coins". The A/B/C is JAs description of coins within the grade. So, in the eyes of JA and CAC, if it doesn't sticker, it is a "C coin"
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I disagree with PCGS or NGC on occasion also. When you disagree, don't buy it if you disagree lower, buy it and crack it if you disagree higher. This has been an issue since the 1980s when TPGS's came into their heyday. I don't know why CAC triggers people in a way that PCGS/NGC does not.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Some people refuse to buy slabbed coins period. Other people only buy slabbed coins that they agree with. Your money, your choice. Yet somehow when you mention the C-word people take it to a whole new level. I really don't understand why it has become such an irrational, religious issue.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
A CAC sticker represents a dealer opinion, in writing of sorts. I’ve started to wonder: why is this specific dealer’s opinion the one we’ve all agreed to value?
No doubt he’s a good grader, but many dealers are. And personally, I don’t know the guy very well. If I’m going to decorate my slabs, I’d rather a stamp of approval from dealers I know and respect. Where is my David Kahn, John Agre, Dave Perkins sticker??
Everybody hasn't agreed. If you don't care for his opinion, you're free to ignore it. Nobody can force you to accept it.
It was more of a rhetorical statement. I should rephrase it as “the dealer opinion the market has agreed to value above others”
I may be wrong so let me know if I am but I thought that CAC doesn't even acknowledge the +.
If it's a 66+ they are judging it as a 66.
There are no +'s in their pop reports.
For example, the MS64+ 1901-S $5 shown above is listed as MS64
Edit: Whoops, sorry. I see @Catbert already mentioned my point.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
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If enough buyers didn't also agree, it wouldn't matter what dealers think.
All my coins with a plus grade and a CAC bean have very good to exceptional eye appeal to me. Very easy to see why
they received their designations.
This is where it can get confusing: My CAC coins don't have a plus grade and the plus grades aren't CAC and I'm not
sure what percentage if any could CAC.
I can see good reasons for a plus grade. Fairly easy for me to see a distinct improvement in a plus grade in most series, especially Morgans, Buffaloes and Walkers. Usually in eye appeal but not always, in strike too.
Where PCGS may give your coin a quick 10 second review, CAC has no such constraints. Similarly, CAC dismisses a + on a coin out of hand. They grade based upon their own criteria which may differ a bit from PCGS. As an example, strike quality, CAC is very harsh on coins weakly struck vs their peers.
Finally, I've received a couple coins now from CAC that point out PVC contamination. You ever see PCGS do that?
Not that I really > @jmlanzaf said:
It largely has to do with the superciliousness of so many of the CAC proselytizers. Coins without stickers are denigrated as coins unworthy of owning under any circumstances. Collections that aren't all-CAC are dismissed as inferior to those which are, with no consideration of the actual coins they contain. JA is portrayed as some supernatural, omniscient, infallible coin savant. Mere mortal coin collectors, no matter how experienced, are "fooling themselves" if they think they can properly evaluate a coin. There are "all kinds of things" that can be done to coins that only CAC can suss out. It all just gets irritating in its relentless smugness.
Hopefully that clarifies things a bit for you.
Yes.
I have one + CAC coin and she a Classic Commemorative;
...and she's a QDO (Minor Variety) to boot!
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Superciliousness, proselytizers, denigrated.... Wow, never knew these words existed. Are they Cacable?
LOL. Not at all. Because substitute PCGS for CAC in your post and it still reads the same only without the rancor. Some people will not buy NGC slabs. People look at raw coins as automatically suspect. Yet only when it is CAC do people claim that the hobby is collapsing under the weight of JAs opinion.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
JA was involved in the origins of TPGSs. He has the most trusted eye in the business. There are other people whose opinions are valued. But the fact that you don't know JAs history that well is really on you not the market.
You could say the same about any pedigreed collection. Maybe you know Eliasberg but not Pittman or Green or Bass. Ok. Great. So you put no cache on a Pittman pedigree. But for the million collectors who do know Pittman, it might matter. Personally, I wouldn't pay 1 cent extra for an Eliasberg coin. I don't care about pedigrees. But unlike the anti-CAC people, I don't get all self-righteous and ornery when someone posts an Eliasberg coin here.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Don't you mean if it doesn't CAC, it's a "C" coin to JA/CAC period?
PCGS could certainly have a different opinion on what a "C" coin is.
The whole A/B/C thing IS A JA/CAC thing. I've never heard anyone but JA use that designation.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Since CAC uses A, B, C and PCGS has just + or no +, is the following accurate:
But he's not using it to mean only for CAC coins. He's using it to mean Low end for the grade, which isn't unique to CAC. I'm guessing a lot of people have their own thoughts to what is low end for the grade.
That is true.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I think the + has to be an "A" and only an A. Maybe even an "A+" CAC only designates about 30% of coins as "C". The "+" would have to be 50% of coins if it constituted A and B+ coins.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Of course, but it’s a very disproportionate weight and value given to one person’s opinion.