CAC Question
bearcave
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When I was deep into it, earl;y 2000's, you had 2 TPG's that were excellent, PCGS & NGC any auction house would take their word. Now there is even another one that proves the other ones know what they are talking about? 
Can you just get the coin graded by CAC or do you have to go thru one of the others first?
Ken
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No - it has to be graded my PCGS or NGC first.
Ok. That is what I wanted to know. Thanks.
In before the lock...
Grading standards change. CAC is a reaction to extreme, chronic grade inflation and a reduced ability or willingness to identify problem coins.
Who knew? When I get back in there is another grading company.
CAC is NOT a grading company. Their mission is to review coins already graded by PCGS and NGC (only) to ensure those coins are middle to high for the grade assigned on the label. There are occasions where coins exceed the grade on the label and those coins receive a gold bean.
In those rare cases where the grading services miss the grade entirely (just too high) CAC offers no opinion.
CAC is not a grading company. CAC is a company that provides an opinion on coins already graded by PCGS and NGC. Coins that do not meet CAC's grading guidelines do not receive a sticker. Coins that meet CAC's grading guidelines are given a green sticker. Coins that exceed CAC's grading guidelines receive a gold sticker.
To sum it up ... PCGS and NGC provide an opinion on a coin's grade. CAC provides an opinion on a coin already graded by PCGS and NGC.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
The two posters above me are absolutely correct that CAC is not a grading service; however, many treat it as such as and reject all non-stickered coins as over graded even when CAC states this is not the case. I disagree with it, but it is the current market reality.
It amazes me there are people in this hobby, spending thousands or more a year, who don't understand some of the fundamental aspects of the hobby. CAC is not new (they started 13 years ago!), and they have not changed what they do, so how do so many people still get this wrong?
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I had never heard of them until I started back into it.
@bearcave I wasn't referring to you specifically, I just meant in general. It seems a version of this thread pops up quite often (and I've only been hanging out here for a month or so). Sorry if it felt like I was singling you out, not my intention. I just see a lot of CAC threads here and elsewhere in coin forums and it seems so many misunderstand their mission (disagreeing with it is fine, but I feel like people should at least understand it before bashing/praising them).
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In part because CAC has done a poor job of explaining its job, and its website leaves many obvious questions unanswered hence the myriad of threads we see over the years. Then we have the cheer squad whose blind idolatry and mis-statements taint the water even more (not targeted at CAC itself or you). There have been members here who have declared all non CAC coins problem coins or over graded. I wish I was making that up.
@cameonut2011 Yeah I've seen those types of comments as well. Personally I consider the CAC sticker a nice bonus, like free shipping or 10x eBay Bucks, it's a perk, but it does not persuade my purchasing decision. If I like the coin, I like the coin. Especially because it's impossible to know if a coin has been submitted and not stickered, or if the coin just hasn't been submitted yet.
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In the late 90's and early 2000's, when I was in it so big, everyone here said to go with PCGS if I wanted to get the most money or NGC. Then after my collection was stolen about 2008, I quit everything associated with coins. I mean, I quit everything! I got back in 2019 and discovered everybody was talking about CAC, didn't know what that was. I asked and went to their website still didn't know anymore as they were not taking anyone if you are not a dealer. Didn't know what they were. Not singling anyone out just curious.
>
@cameonut2011 said:
Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!,
a new CAC thread.
Oh, the possiblities here are endless.
TYSM @bearcave !
And I had to make it worse by bringing up grade inflation. If we can find a way to tie eBay in this somehow, we'll surely have 1000 posts by the end of the week.
CAC was controversial when it was first hinted at and then announced by the original parties. It’s controversial to this day. In the end, it’s another paid opinion.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Guess I have to type something before this emoji is not a smiley face!
Why pay once to have your coin graded when you can pay 2 times?
I trust the BIGS aka PCGS and NGC. Certainly don't require a silly sticker to confirm what was already paid for.
I heard somewhere if you send ja $25 you may receive a Christmas card. Perhaps that is what all the hype is about?
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Soooo...I can sell you any Pcgs or NGC coin at the grade on the holder? Lol
Why even pay once?
And I assume you would NEVER submit for reconsideration or crack a coin out - that would be paying twice.
CAC has been around long enough now that if I see slabbed coin that's worth more than ~$500 without a sticker, I assume (yes I know) that it has been sent in and didn't get a sticker. (So a probably a C coin or worse) Under ~$500 and I don't worry about it much or care. Since CAC won't allow us commoners to have access to a database to verify if a coin has been sent and didn't sticker, that's the position I've started to take.
@astrorat said: "To sum it up ... PCGS and NGC provide an opinion on a coin's grade. CAC provides an opinion on a coin already graded by PCGS and NGC."
I think it is necessary to include (as I understand it): "...already graded by PCGS and NGC that is high end for each of their coins with the correctly assigned grade already."
Your edit that you felt was necessary, only speaks to coins which CAC stickers. It doesn’t cover those CAC opinions which result in the lack of a sticker.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Is there anything posted below that you guys don't agree with?
2 . Some folks are better graders than others.
3 . Some folks may "miss" something on a coin that COULD change its grade.
We are lucky to have TPGS's. If you cannot grade, CAC provides another layer of insurance. THE ONLY PROBLEM I have with CAC - actually two...
So please stop bitching about CAC. If you don't like it don't use their service or don't pay extra for CAC stickers!
Except some of the auction houses send entire collections off to CAC before the sale. In those cases it is glaringly obvious which ones made the cut, and which didn’t.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
I don’t agree that “ 7. NGC was a spin-off from PCGS.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
So, PCGS use to grade everything for me and I would get top dollar when I sold , now I'm being told to have the coin by either and send it to cac for the most money? Will cac do ANACS coins to?
Actually, though it's not completely logical, PCGS/CAC beats NGC/CAC.
No ANACS.
Hard to explain but say you got a widget, any widget:
PCGS/NGC grades MS66 = Widget has a market value of $200.
You send in to cacs and they decide not worthy of sticker - Widget value still $200.
You crack coin from holder, resubmit to PCGS/NGC, coin comes back MS65, Widget value now only $125.
You resubmit MS65 coin to cacs, they add green sticker, Widget value now $500.
Previous MS66 now MS65 coin gets gold cacs now value $550-$575.
Crazy world!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
And you thought that was the last you'll hear about your question eh?
That example is not at all accurate.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The metrics seem to shift every few years.
OK sorry trying to correct, maybe I overexaggerated a bit. You resubmit MS65 coin to cacs, they add green sticker, Widget value now $500. $300, gold $350.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
We need a ruby level $5000 sticker. One where only Christmas card recipients of ja can even put their little eyes on the coin. I'm done with it. This cacs ruined our great hobby.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
How?
That’s still nowhere close to accurate. A typical MS65 widget with a green CAC sticker doesn’t trade at a 50% premium to a non-CAC MS66 (in your example, $300 for CAC 65, compared to $200 for non-CAC 66).
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If you accept> @MFeld said:
Generic saints were at that level at one point.
I don’t see how the numbers - even in his revised example - (CAC 65 at $300 vs. non-CAC 66 at $200) could apply to Saints.😉. And a I don’t recall CAC 65 Saints trading for 50% more than non-CAC 66’s. At what levels did you see each of those grades trade?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Well, You won't be buying any of my Barber Halves...except maybe those that already had stickers when I bought them! Of course that is if Barber Halves are on your radar!
I had it mixed up in my mind. The spread was between stickered and non stickered gems, but CACed 65s were fetching non stickered 66 money.
So, in other words, what you're saying is, if I sell I need to send them to PCGS, hope they grade low, send them to cac hope they get a "green or gold" sticker and then the coin will sell for more money? When I started in the 90's it was simpler then, all you had do was submit to PCGS and hope for a high grade and sell for top dollar!
That was my recollection, as well - a far cry from the 50% premium used in the example with which I took issue.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What you should be hoping for is that your coins get graded correctly and that they are also considered high end for the grade. In this case, you should have no problem getting a sticker and also maximizing your return on your investment.
I've got a headache now.
What exactly is a "correctly graded" coin?
To paraphrase the President of PCGS from another thread: PCGS has its grading standards. NGC has its grading standards. CAC has its grading standards. These may overlap to some degree, but are not identical.
Even if all of those standards were identical, a "correctly graded" coin may not be a desirable coin (to some individual collector) for any number of reasons.
Take 2 "CAC" tablets (Beans) and call us in the morning.
That's because we are writing about THOSE COINS! However, if you have found a way to tell which coins were sent to CAC and failed to sticker. Show us one.