So what do I make of the 154 non Premier Morgan Dollars at Heritage-FUN?
Coinstartled
Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
228 PCGS graded Morgans are listed and 74 have the CAC sticker.
Where does that leave the unloved stepchildren?
Current pricing starts at a bit over $500 so maybe a few were never submitted based on valuation. Probably some genuines, but not many.
So how does one value the coins that are considered "C'" grade or lower by john Albanese?
Not sure that my eyes are good enough to discern the difference between a "C" graded MS65 buck from an image, and risk ending up with a non Gem MS64. Oh dear...the dilemma that the experts have created.
Think I will sit this one out.
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Comments
I would imagine most were not sent to CAC. I would value them on their own merits. As an individual collector I don’t think I could even submit to CAC but through a dealer but to what end? It’s just another opinion. A good one but still an opinion. But you also point out that the best way to see a coin is in person and not in pics.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Conventional thought believes that 90% of the coins have been to CAC...at least the ones over $1000. It would make to spend the twelve bucks for the extra 10-20% score.
I can certainly see that from a dealer’s POV. I guess it depends on the source of the coins. I’ve seen CAC stickers on $100 coins and up. Never quite sure what criteria people use to decide to send to CAC.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Forget the stickers and look at the coins.
While I wholeheartedly agree with that concept, I am ...now... of the opinion that the sticker is near if not ...AT.... the point of a "requirement."
Both as to reinforcement of opinion and as to allaying hesitation to buy for buyers.
BOTH experienced AND newbs.
Here's a crazy idea - bid what you want to pay for the coin. Period.
If you don't want to buy the coin, don't bid.
Work your way up from melt.
It's a joke...it's a joke!!!
Stickers are still not a requirement for me.
They’re actually completely irrelevant.
Then again, I prefer coffee over Kool Aid.
90%? Seems like CAC should be going out of business soon.
Well if you read my last line in the opening post, you would have the answer.
Yes, I had my answer before I wrote it. But that makes this entire thread gratuitous CAC bashing.
Some people say that without any evidence whatsoever. Given that CAC has looked at a million coins and PCGS alone has graded 40 million coins, 90% might be high.
Let's set aside the truculence for a moment and consider this coin that I was looking at earlier.
An 1878-S Morgan in the lofty grade of MS67, graded by our hosts.
No CAC sticker and one must believe that it has been evaluated and failed though no public database confirms that.
The coin is at $6900, and market on a grade lower example is about $600.
If Albanese doesn't like it, why would two bidders be willing to pay such a premium for an at best, "C" grade coin. If he hasn't seen it, why not? Who would leave a thousand bucks on the table?
A lot of questions now, particularly as PCGS is embracing the CAC stickers in their registry program.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1878-s-1-ms67-pcgs-pcgs-7082-/a/1311-4725.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
If the coin is choice for it's grade...why not buy it? It is sight seen after all! Looking at $500+ coins probably puts you in a spot where you value quality and have learned to discern the good, the bad and the ugly. Heck, maybe others share the same concern and you can get a better deal than if it had already been to CAC.
I'll correct my statement to 90% of the $1000 plus coins submitted to auction.
Even if it didn't CAC, it's still (presumably) a 67. Bid accordingly. Even a C 67 is a 67. There is no reason to assume it is overgraded any more than you would assume the same for a 67 in pre-CAC days. You either respect the PCGS holder or you don't.
I do, but PCGS considers those with the added sticker to be "premier" coins.
That continues to baffle me.
They are "premier" because they get a premium. But a 67 (not premier) is still a 67.
But we are working in a narrow "C" grade at best, band. That is dicey for a coin that jumps 10 fold from one grade to the next. presumably the bidders have seen the coin in hand.
I wouldnt want to spend 7k on a coin i havent seen in hand or had trusted eyes check it for me,stickered or not
Sad, isn't it?
Have 90% of your coins over $1k been to CAC?
Collector, occasional seller
What, we talking about Morgan’s right? 😏
Discerning good, bad and ugly is immaterial. My lesson was learned with that 1848-CAL quarter eagle.
From the pix AND in hand.... it looked **VERY* nice!
Sticker? Nope. Sent it to auction and made a tiny.... (not tidy) ... gain.
For a year or so, Heritage had it in the archives with a "Make offer to owner" on it. Apparently there was no clamoring for an unbeaned CAL as the make offer is now gone from the archive listing.
I am glad to have sold it.
I don't know. CAC does not maintain a comprehensive database.
For all we know, if the coin had been stickered, it still might have remained unsold via “make offer to owner”. And the fact that the “make offer” is now gone might mean that the sticker-less coin ended up selling.
My point is that you seem to be reaching conclusions without much of a factual basis.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If you bought a nice coin for $X and were able to sell it for a profit then I think you did better than most! I sure hope it wasn't purchased just for the hope of a CAC sticker.
I might just point out that people used to argue (QUITE LOUDLY!) if it should be a 66 or 67. Others would shout just as loudly "We don't even need the 66 grade!"
Now, we argue if it's a 67 A, B, C, liner C without sticker, solid A with a sticker, B that was never seen by JA, or......... you fill in the blank. Let's not forget plus coins and coins in old holders. A person new to the hobby would be not be wrong to do a quick about-face and leave.
There is zero, ZERO chance that the "top 10 graders" could take 100 Morgans and sort them in piles of "A", "B", and "C" coins within each grade and achieve anything approaching a consensus. It's utter madness!!!!
These are confusing times and the splitters (as opposed to the lumpers) seem to be ruling the world.
Good garbage. Look at the coin, think about what you're willing to pay for it, think about what someone else might be willing to pay for it (your exit strategy) and either buy it or not. Stickers are only one of a multitude of things that have muddied this up.
Conclusion/S ?
Plural?
Yes, conclusion(s), plural.
1 - that there was no “clamoring” for the coin, due to the fact that it wasn’t stickered.
2 - that there was no “clamoring” for the coin since the “make offer to owner” is gone from the archive listing.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Okay. Whatever has transpired with the coin doesn't change my attitude towards it.
When I posted it here (can't remember if it was BST or BST attention to the auction) a lot of folks assumed it was stickered.
"SINCE IT WAS RARE" and I reached the conclusion that I would rather own better coins with stickers than without.
I "assumed" it wouldn't be unsold for so long if there were any "clamor" attached.
Nowadays, I'll opt for the insurance of confidence with the sticker.
Can non dealers submit to cac? I have tried several times to join but they appear to have stopped taking members. I hope this is not a dealer only thing because if it is, it really lowers the value of being a member of our host as you will always be destined to play second fiddle as you will have no choice but to buy cac coins from a dealer vice rolling the dice with a raw find. Anybody know if the average Joe can join cac?
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
So what do I make of the 154 non Premier Morgan Dollars at Heritage-FUN?
Not much, standard dreck. I'd crack and dip any and all of the environmentally damaged ones. Rid the nasty.
For the record, I was always a coin collector, never a plastic paper sticker numismatist, lol
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Yes, you can. Get on the waiting list, eventually they will contact you. You can also submit through a dealer friend
Awesome. Ty. Will wait my turn in the shoot till my number is drawn.
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
Yes. I picked up a black 1888-S and no not MS but I have other “blacked” NT coins this I got at a great price. My money my pic.
Chop on reverse maybe. But will go with all my other Black coins set.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Is it by email, or do you just feel it in your heart, one day?
It's on their website.
just what I noticed;
I watched most of the half and large cents auctioned on Wednesday night and I could not see any great decline in price due to a details grade nor a noticeable increase in prices due to stickers.
I watched some of the $20 gold on the next night and the prices seemed quite strong with sticker or without.
So I do not expect much trouble for the non stickered coins making strong money
Common Saints in PCGS MS66+ nearly double in price if they have a green sticker. One of the more dramatic escalations in value perception.
Well, according to some people here, practically every slabbed coin has been to CAC, so using that logic they must be dreck. But if they can get downgraded to a lower holder and THEN get the sticker, they instantly become premium coins! According to our host a CAC sticker makes them premium coins!
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Okay, this is a thing that is absurdly easy to grasp.
What makes a "premium coin" is too vague to try to describe in text.
A buyer, when evaluating a potential purchase has a few things to consider.
Usually, he will NOT buy an ugly candidate.
He may or may not be the absolutely sharpest bestest importantest certaintest GRADER in the world.
AND he may subscribe to the "buy the coin; not the holder" school of thought.
HOWEVER
If there is any concern over "will it sticker?" an existing sticker will definitively be answered if there IS a sticker on it.
So..... it paves at least one path to the purchase.
I brought that up with JM awhile ago where lower grades coins in this instance can bring in a premium at a lower grade than one higher for being best in class at that grade.
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
Sad but you are right on the money. This is the state of coin collecting in 2020. Never could have dreamt up something this insane in a million years. Crazy world.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
There's an old saying, "the Market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent".
That said, that is not what JA intends CAC to be. That is not really what CAC means. But it does happen, in some cases.
What I don't know is whether it is the person buying the coin or the holder. If, for example, you wanted a CAC set of something in old NGC fatties, you would be looking for scarce plastic. If you wanted a gold CAC set of fatties, you would be looking for RARE plastic. You'd have to pay more than the coin is worth, in all likelihood, to acquire the plastic.
I don't understand it. I don't condone it. I don't take part in it. JA doesn't understand it or condone it. But it is what it is.
But it's really no more or less rational than some of the other plastic games that get played with PCGS plastic. I mean, look at the premium paid for Regency holders. It has little to do with the coin in the holder.
It's also not a lot different than upgrading a coin from a 64+ to a 65 and paying a huge premium for the SAME coin. And we now have people resubmitting to get a PL on the holder so they can get a huge premium for the SAME coin.
CAC is no more or less rational, no more or less good/evil than an TPGS. It is an opinion that you can value or not.
Good explanation. Ty
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
A MS65 with a sticker is worth more than the same coin in a MS66 holder without the sticker.
Been doing this wrong all this time, should be requesting downgrades instead of upgrades lol
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™