What do you do? Incorrect Variety Attribution on Top Pop Coins
BigDowgie
Posts: 1,774 ✭✭✭✭
Curious what thoughts are out there concerning top pop (I mean 1/0 top pop) coins that are incorrectly attributed, what do you do? The coins are not in your set, but someone else's. Who should take first action steps to address if notified, our Host or the collector?
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I would think PCGS would want their work to reflect correctness, but I don't see anyone reaching out to the owner and asking the coin be returned. Plus I doubt they will make that call on a photo.
Just my thoughts.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Simplest would probably be to inform the owner, and then they have the option to contact PCGS about a resubmission if they are interested.
Yes. As the owner I would want it to be correct too.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I hate to say this but there is nothing you can do.
Example 1. I noticed a coin for sale at heritage that was a variety that was wrong. I saw the coin pop up in a registry set and I sent the guy a note explaining the variety was wrong and to get his money back from heritage. Crickets...So I than went to pcgs and showed them the coin in Coin facts and this is what they did. They removed the picture.....Yep the coin is still in the set with a picture but they took the picture out of coin facts. I swear this was another reason they changed showing all the pictures in coin facts.
Example 2. You buy a top pop variety from a vest pocket dealer for 5 grand, 6 months later another coin shows up and it proves the first coin pcgs graded was wrong. You try to tell the vest pocket dealer but he says its not his fault and its been to long for a return, So your next step is to send the coin back to pcgs? Wrong. You just paid 5 grand for a coin in the price guide that shows 500. PCGS will NOT refund the 5 grand you paid and will only pay the 500 if your lucky. Do you send the coin back in?
Example 3. Recently our host decided to recognize the type F quarter for the 1968 s. I sent my coin in and they said it was right but forgot to take the true view. It has the old secure plus picture. Even with that picture after I posted on these boards another member contacted me saying the coin is NOT the Type F. Ok so our host has graded only 3 examples and my bet is if mine is wrong so are the other 2. I sent my coin back yesterday, will they refund my variety fee when they discover they are wrong? Will see. Update They sent the coin back NOT FIXED.
Example 4. After all these years I finally realize that there are some Registry players who would rather have a coin that is Wrong and it fills the slot than to get it taken care of and you have no coin to fill in that slot.
Example 5. I am now part of the problem. I bought a coin from @dimeman a few months ago that was the 1961 d/d 501 and one of the last coins I needed to Complete my set. Another member contacted me and said the coin is Wrong. Ok so price guide is at 600 for that coin and I paid 500 will pcgs refund my money if I send the coin back?
Or will they claim mechanical error and pay nothing? Until our host stands up and tries to correct all these coins at THERE expense I will be hanging on to the 61 d/d. Sad...….
Here is the Most Expensive mistakes I have found this past week after another member got a 1943 ddo 103 pulled from a GC auction and asked me to look. I went to coin facts and NOT only is the MS 64 WRONG But so is the MS 65. These coins are 10 grand plus coins and anyone can see the difference.
The close up picture is of my VF coin and you can clearly see the doubling on LIBERTY goes almost 3/4 of the way up the outside of each letter and yet look at the MS 64 and MS 65. All other examples are correct...
https://pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1943-25c-ddo-fs-103-016-7/145620
Good Luck and lets hope our host spends some time in 2020 fixing all the wrong varieties.
Enjoy Tom
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
I have notified PCGS before and nothing was done. In this case, another coin graded that was higher, so it is no longer a top pop. I am really not sure what they can do without the coin being sent back in.
I have a coin that used to be assigned to the wrong coin number. I had to send it in for a reholder and a correction as a mechanical error. They said they could not fix it electronically.
I was never under any illusions about what the coin was. It was just a clerical error in my opinion.
"Premium Values for unattributed varieties. PCGS does guarantee the attribution of coins listed as a particular variety on the PCGS holder insert. However, if PCGS has not attributed a particular variety and the coin in question is overgraded or non-authentic, PCGS only guarantees the value of the coin as described on the PCGS holder insert. For example, if you bought an 1921 Morgan dollar that happened to be a rare VAM variety, but the PCGS holder insert did not state the VAM variety and just said “1921 $1”, the PCGS Guarantee would only cover the value of an 1921 Morgan dollar, not the value of the rare VAM variety."
They will guarantee error attributions as long as they think it's not a clerical error.
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"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
I would be amused by the discovery. Beyond that, well it's not my set.
if you can think of a tactful way to engage with the owner, that could be done. anything past that comes across as a meddling busy-body to me, but I'm not that competitive. also, there is the possibility that you could be wrong and end up with egg-on-your-face.
Tom, thanks for the detailed reply. I agree with the frustration and especially Example 4! I sent my analysis and pictures for 2 top pop Jefferson varieties to PCGS. It will be interesting if they provide a response. I have returned incorrectly attributed coins and our Host remedied the situation to my satisfaction. They did not reimburse PCGS Price Guide, but instead for cost, as evidenced by invoices, which is fair.
I'm one of those purists.....if it wrong, fix it! Incorrect attributions messes up the pops, pricing and the collectors who own the correct varieties.
maybe PCGS should have a section with the PUPs. I suspect sometimes they are using incorrect source data as sometimes submitters do. (not by choice, but errors in books being used)
Maybe, but only one source for Jefferson varieties. www.varietyvista.com
James wiles is the keeper of this site. Great pictures. There should be no misattributed varieties with this resource.
But a wrong coin screws up the pops and the value of the others that are right. Plus who ever has the coin in there set most likely paid more for that coin and when they die and it gets sold and it just continues on.
Look the difference is if I am wrong I apologize, our host seems to bury there head deeper in the sand. I also have to ask with all the threads about fake coins on this site daily and the up roar I just can't understand the difference in pointing those coins out and not being able to post these varieties that are wrong?
So go spend 17,000 on a variety that is wrong that's just tuff luck but lets save someone from buying a fake coin for a couple hundred. Mike knows his Nickels, Jon knows his dimes and I know the quarters. I understand that pcgs makes mistakes but lets try to fix them instead of just saying oh well there just varieties.
Those two 1943 ddo 103 pcgs values is 35.000 so whomever owns those coins better be paying attention or there going to lose there a.. and I am sure that will make them want to collect varieties and coins from our host more. I am glad that at least Ian and GC will pull coins when he is notified as that will save someone some big bucks. Not all collectors are specialist in there series and most trust the Label to be correct.
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
Well I have seen Washington Quarter varieties in Coinfacts that have two different coins. So not sure which is correct and which is wrong. I do use Coinfacts a lot to determine PUP for coins, since Vista Variety does not show the whole coin. Vista Variety does list all of the varieties so it does help when determining which variety your looking at.
Here is my Washington Quarter Variety Registry Set
This is my Washington Quarter Proof Variety Registry Set
Look the difference is if I am wrong I apologize, our host seems to bury there head deeper in the sand
I don't think they do this but I could be wrong.
grading coins from online images is hard enough, deciphering some varieties which may be very subtle can be nearly impossible. expecting PCGS to correct a perceived mistaken variety attribution that is out in the world is really asking too, too much. I believe if it was submitted to them and wrong that they would correct it, but the onus for that is on the owner. a nudge is about all that can be done.
If it's obvious enough to been seen in a picture, how could it have been missed? Do all graders and a finalizer verify the attribution?
I know this is somewhat of a rhetorical question, and that I'm preaching to the choir by saying this to you, but here is my perspective, for what it's worth:
1) People like to help and spend their time on issues where they feel they can make a positive difference.
When I first found there was a problem with the common Type G reverse 1968-S quarters being attributed as Type F, I let our host know right away that the PR69 (which, at the time, was the first and only one pictured) was wrong. That was back in November. Today, the PR69 Type G photo is still the lead photo on Coinfacts for the Type F variety.
I think the discussion here on the forum about this variety has been really useful from the standpoint of informing collectors, sellers, and our host of the problem. Yet, here we are in February, and the problem hasn't yet been fixed. There is another variety I've come across with the same problem (false positives) that I really should post about, just to get the word out to everyone - but I'd definitely be more motivated to give my time and expertise if I knew it would prompt a timely fix for the problem.
2) People don't want to get banned
Whenever I have posted on the Type F quarters, I've tried to approach it from the standpoint of being helpful, rather than being critical. I hope that everyone else (including our host) sees it that way, too. Nevertheless, I do wonder sometimes whether my posts might get me kicked off, at some point. Other people may be wary of posting on such topics, in case they might be seen as critical.
Now that, I think, is being unfair to our host. We're talking about coins with True View pics, which really are excellent. They have all the resolution needed to attribute the varieties we are talking about, and then some!
Sometimes, but not always.
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Here is an example for both of you - the 1968-S proof quarter FS-101 DDO. This is the variety I alluded to, earlier. Before we look at the DDO, let's look at a normal 1968-S proof quarter. I am showing you "ERTY" of "LIBERTY", which is the pickup point I use for the variety. Again, this is the normal quarter, so there is no doubling:
Complete image at https://images.pcgs.com/CoinFacts/38351271_178806509_Max.jpg
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Now, here is the FS-101 DDO - there is clear doubling on the right hand side of the letters. In particular, look at the stems of the E, the R, and the T, as well as the loop of the R:
Complete image at https://images.pcgs.com/CoinFacts/26511918_32168966_Max.jpg
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Now, let's look at the other 2 images on Coinfacts for this variety. There is a little bit of strike doubling on the bottom edges of the letters, but they are clearly not the DDO:
Complete image at https://images.pcgs.com/CoinFacts/26424927_32045624_Max.jpg
Complete image at https://images.pcgs.com/CoinFacts/27714674_37919436_Max.jpg
Good catch on that one, Tom! The MS64 and the MS65 both match John Wexler's WDDO-014, which appears to be the same as James Wiles' DDO-009 (although not all of the late-stage die markers are described there).
http://doubleddie.com/1702674.html
http://varietyvista.com/09a WQ Vol 1/DDO Detail Pages/1943PDDO009.htm
The doubling on "IN GOD WE TRUST" on the WDDO-014 is also quite different from the FS-103. Quite the cautionary tale - many dates have more than one doubled die variety (if not many), so it pays to make sure you are getting the right one!
I think it goes without saying ... I would work with the owner.
Of course we don't know if the TPG was asked for variety attribution service.
While I agree, the hassles one gets trying to right a wrong, or an error is often met with more resistance and backlash from those we are attempting to help ( or right, in this case)
Pointing it out is one thing. Getting it fixed: a challenge.
Who is up for it ? Keep up the good fight.
I can see why PCGS would remove an image, at least until the mystery was solved.
My OCD requires me being a stickler for correct images and attribution.
If it were a variety I hunted or a series I collected seriously, it would drive me crazy.
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I in no way was being critical of our host, as we all make mistakes. I have experienced any issues or problems, when I own the coin, returning it for their guarantee, if in fact it was misattributed. I do wish there were a process by which our Host could notify an owner their could be a problem with a coin to help nudge owners to take action. Possibly this notification could help our Host void their guarantee, say if 12 months pass without action?
With all this being said, we all know the owner is ultimately responsible to get it corrected.
BigDowgie, thank you very much for this thread, and I agree with all of your points
Separate from the issue of correcting the pops, It would be very helpful if there were procedures in place to allow for the timely review and removal of incorrect images from Coinfacts. So many people use these images to determine their varieties, as @NorCalJack pointed out, because the images are high quality and they show the whole coin.
When the first image people see on Coinfacts is not the variety it's supposed to be, that is a problem that merits quick action. The longer the photo remains available, the more people are mislead by it - and potentially, the more incorrect coins they will send in for attribution.
The image is an entity unto itself - on principle, it may be reviewed and/or removed regardless of whether the original coin has been reviewed or whether said coin remains in the population.