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Is there a Washington quarter struck with the obverse die used for Proofs?
Insider2
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The MS Type B reverse coins have been known on several dates. Has anyone discovered quarters struck with retired Proof
OBVERSE dies? If so, what are the diagnostics to ID the Proof obverse. I should think coins might be found struck using one Proof die (either obverse or reverse) and both Proof dies.
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IMO, definitely so. Some years between 1955-1964, the US mint had excess obverse PR 25c dies and used them to strike ms coins (rather than discard them). 1959 was one such year, for sure. The obv pr die coins can be seen in combination with B reverse.
Got any photos? Diagnostics would be nice too.
The years for the use of the reverse dies on quarters were 1956-64. Much lessor known and more rare are the proof die reverses used on quarters in Denver between 1968-1972-d . (Referred to as clad type b’s for many years but now catalogued as type h by Cherrypickers. I’m not aware of proof obverse dies used. Proof reverse dies were also used on other denominations. For more info about those, search for threads by ProofArtworkonCircs. (Herbert Hicks, RIP). Edited for proper capitalization of PtoofArtworkonCircs. .
I do recall comments about some type b reverses having “proof like” obverses, but I don’t have any of those. Cladking, Tommy and 19Lyds may have some knowledge of that.
So are you are saying that 1959 Type B 25c coins also were (all? most? some ? most ?) struck with Proof obverse dies? Their obverse does look strong.
Washington Quarters 32 to 98 are my favorite series. I have never approached it from this "angle". This sounds interesting. There is a lot for me to learn.
I'm examining a mixed roll of 1958 coins - 80% have Type B reverses but all the obverses look identical - strong details and semi-PL. Micro die breaks are in different positions. No diagnostics to speak of.
the only slight differences I have seen are the inside rim at the edge and the JF designer initials on lower bust, but only indications and not definitive
Does anyone have any more info on this?
Very interesting thread. Wish I could help.
Pete
@thisistheshow
Here is a handy list of the obverse design varieties (ODV's) used in the Washington quarter series:
http://varietyvista.com/09b WQ Vol 2/Obverse Design Varieties.htm
If you visit the site, you'll see that there were a number of obverse design changes over the years, but proof and business strike quarters for a given date always have the same obverse design.
Why did the early proof Washington quarters (1937-1964) have a special reverse design (RDV-002, a.k.a Type B reverse) but not a special obverse design? In a nutshell, the business strike reverse (RDV-001, a.k.a Type A reverse) didn't look that great on a proof coin. Take a look at the photo below. In 1936, proof quarters were made using the RDV-001/Type A reverse.
The RDV-001/Type A reverse has low relief design elements (particularly the wing and tail feathers) that barely stand out against the mirrored fields on a proof coin. This is particularly the case since the proofs made by the mint in this era did not have good cameo contrast (if any at all). Proof dies need periodic repolishing to maintain the mirrored fields, but with every repolishing, more design detail is also lost. The low relief design elements on the reverse - which didn't show up great to begin with - became even less visible with every polishing. On the photo below, the wing feathers melt right into the fields, and the tail feathers are more or less gone. In making the higher relief RDV-002/Type B reverse for proof quarters, the mint was looking to create a design that showed up better on proof coins and stood up to the repeated polishing.
On the obverse of proof quarters, it's not uncommon for Washington's queue to be partially polished away, but in general, the business strike obverse designs show up better on a proof coin; therefore, there were not any special proof designs made for the obverse.
Image from: https://images.pcgs.com/CoinFacts/83893035_100815223_2200.jpg
You cannot identify a proof obverse die on a business strike quarter based on the design, but you can theoretically identify it based on other die markers. Below is a very interesting pair of 1972-S Eisenhower dollar "Trail Die" varieties - a proof and an UNC with the same obverse die - reported by the Ike Group. On both of these coins, there is a matching set of linear marks coming off of the letters in "IN GOD WE TRUST".
Image from: http://www.ikegroup.info/DIVA listings/1972 S/2SB-402.1.pdf
Image from: http://www.ikegroup.info/DIVA listings/1972 S Proof/2SP-402.pdf
Die cracks, scratches and gouges could also be used to match obverse dies on a proof and business strike coin. You might also find the same doubled die obverse being used on both proof and business strikes, if you're really lucky (don't know of any examples of these). On 50's and 60's proof coins, you can also sometimes find little squiggly thread-like die dents - these presumably originated from threads/lint that were on the dies during hubbing. The 1952 "Superbird" proof quarter (FS-901) may be an example of this (with an S-shaped dent on the eagle's breast).
Image from: https://images.pcgs.com/CoinFacts/144443_37657684_Max.jpg
I would suspect there are some proof obverse on business strike quarters waiting to be found - the real challenge is finding the first one when you have no idea what die markers to look for!
@IkesT said: "I would suspect there are some proof obverse on business strike quarters waiting to be found - the real challenge is finding the first one when you have no idea what die markers to look for!"
If they used the Proof reverse dies they also used the Proof obverse dies. I'm looking but don't have the Proofs yet to compare.
With about 20 1958 Proofs, 20 business strikes, and 20 Type B's it should be clearly evident.
I think they probably did, but 20 of each is hardly any to find a one-die variety - you may have to look at hundreds of each, at least. Not every proof obverse will have distinctive die markers that you can use - in fact, it may be a minority that do.
Relative to the reverse, the obverse has a lot more space taken up by the mirrored fields, and any markers that happen to fall in the fields are likely to have been polished away. The biggest patch of real estate where you are likely to find these markers is on Washington's bust, and you would want to look carefully for any that may be camouflaged within the hair details. If you do find die markers on proof obverses that you can look for on business strike coins, many of them will be small enough that they will be worn off on circulated coins, so you'll need AU/UNC coins to search.
Finding the 1956-1964 Type B reverse quarters is relatively easy. There were multiple Type B dies used for every date, such that some of the dates are ~5% or more Type B. They might have used just as many proof obverse dies, but a) it's probably a minority of them that have distintive die markers, b) assuming they have them, each obverse die will have markers in different places, so you are dealing with one-die varieties (much scarcer, relative to the Type B reverses), c) you don't know which or if any obverse dies with markers may have been chosen at random to do business strikes, and d) for all we know, some of the proof dies used to make business strikes may have even been extras that were not used to strike any proofs.
Like I said, finding these will be a major challenge, much more than you realize. That being said, if you do find one, it would be really interesting!
I suspect that the difference will be as obvious as the "B" reverse as soon as someone looks for it. Additionally, EVERY date with a Type B reverse will probably have a similar Proof Die obverse. I only got the idea of looking for these coins a few weeks ago and figured why waste my time if someone already identified the different obverse.
Why, indeed...Well, glad you sorted that out!
Thanks for all you comments! Actually, I have not because in my very limited experience, Washington quarter Proofs don't have many diagnostic markers.
I think it is a trick question....
"Is there a Washington quarter struck with the obverse die used for proofs?"
YES! All proof quarters!
Now if you are talking about business strikes.....
Yes, business strikes.
Great topic from my Sleuthing method I would look for dates before & after design or die changed. So if this happened. Take 1965-66 for these such types
1958-P 6.36M (-876) produced which is low then 1959 was struck they often say they start production late in year for following year. This happened for ? Most likely that they over produced in 1958 which we can see by the production. So it could happen if the Proof sets and other kinds of limited collectibles were produced and then they started to switch to the circulated coins and decided just to use the die and then retire so this it’s possible to have a 1958 proof reverse and 1959 observe on 80% most likely after another collectible run was produced. The reverse was most common die that was in need of touch up more so then observe. 😭
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Bronze Associate member
Are you guy's talking about these?
Wide AM business strike 1998,99,2000
Close AM Proof 1998 and 1999 only
The Mint also did this with the Lincoln Cents! The Wide Am, as well as, the Close AM Proof Cents. The Wide AM business strikes were suppose to be only for the Proof sets and the Proof Close AM Cents were suppose to be only for the business strikes. This Variety is probably my BEST Variety. Pretty profitable if found too!
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.No. The Proof Die used on some business strike quarters is easily spotted by the leaf over the arrow tip. Since we know Proof reverse dies were used, the same should be true for proof obverse dies. This discussion is dealing with the obverse of the quarters - looking for something that can be pinned down to prove the same obverse used for Proofs was also used to strike non-Proofs.
It stands to reason that proof dies that were unfit for striking proofs after only 3,000 were struck would be subsequently used to strike circulation strikes. Why discard a perfectly usable die? I surmise this was done on every series, not just cents and quarters.
It's complicated, especially when you consider what happened in the late 60's/early 70's, again using quarters as an example:
The type G reverse was created for proof quarters in 1968, and was used on a majority of 1968-S proof quarters. A second proof reverse, Type H, was created later in the year, and was used on some 1968-S proof quarters and all 1969-S to 1972-S proof quarters. During the same time period, the most common business strike reverse was Type F.
During this time, the Denver mint received leftover materials from San Francisco, perhaps including proof dies. However, despite Type H being the predominant proof reverse at the time, only 1 to 3 Type H dies per year were used to mint Denver quarters during 1969-1972. Why so few? Did San Francisco not, in fact, send used proof dies to Denver, but only leftover unused proof dies?
About 10% of 1969-D quarters have the Type G reverse (indicating many dies were used). Maybe these were used proof dies, or maybe not. The Type G reverse again appears on 5-10% of 1970-D and 1970-P quarters. Further, a number of class III Type F over Type G doubled dies appeared on 1970-D and 1970-P quarters, indicating Philadelphia was making business strike dies using leftover Type G hubs.
Taking a step back in time to the Type B business strike quarters of 1956-1964, perhaps as many as 5% or more were minted per year, which would have required many dies. Philadelphia was minting proof quarters as well as the Type B business strikes. To produce the Type B business strikes, did they use used proof dies, leftover unused proof dies, or make business strike dies with leftover Type B hubs?