Bonds & Clemens already got into the HOF when the writers allowed Pudge, Bagwell and Piazza in when they all had steroid allegations .... it will take to year 10 but they are in IMO.
@orioles93 said:
Would love to see Jeff Kent and Billy Wagner get more support. Kent is one of the best offensive second baseman of all time and Wagner is one of the most dominant relievers of all time.
Todd Helton deserves for support as well. He was more than just a product of Coors. .316 career average, impressive stats across the board, doubles machine, and a great fielding first baseman,
Wagner has flipped more votes his direction this round than Walker and Kent is one shy (with Helton one behind him), I'd say they're doing pretty well. Kent is quickly running out of years though.
Their support is also pretty consistent throughout the voting pool too w/no more than a 1.2% difference between the pre-results and actual last year.
@LarkinCollector said:
Votes have been coming in fast and furious on the tracker today. I'm not sure what time they announce tomorrow, but latest predictions from me today ...
Jeter - lock, but have a sneaking suspicion he doesn't quite get 100%
Walker - falls shy from 2-7 votes and waits for Vets Committee election (pick up of 80-85 votes of the 87 he was shy last year)
Schilling - picks up 30-35 of the 60 new votes he needs, likely makes it next year, if not a lock on his final ballot (barring him opening his mouth)
Clemens/Bonds - pick up of 16-18 votes of the 66-68 new votes needed, they really need to catch some steam in the next two years to have a chance
Abreu is looking like the only first year candidate who is sure to roll over to next year. I have a feeling there will be some late support to keep another 1 or 2 candidates on the ballot, but no idea who at this point (Giambi and/or Soriano most likely).
Projections are still holding steady with 30 min to go. Walker is trending toward the low end (finishing 7 votes shy @ 73.4%), Schilling toward the high end (picking up 34), Clemens/Bonds looking slightly better (picking up 17-19). Konerko the only one besides Abreu with even a 2nd vote at this point.
I just saw on MLB channel where 3 experts including Peter Gammons all said definitively that Bonds and Clemens would not be getting into the HOF within year 10..... so what i said above ... is a long shot I guess....
Jeter missed unanimous by one vote. That vote was cast by a moron lol
Or, rather, the vote not cast was by a moron.
Curious about Scott Rolen receiving a significant bump. He's another one I can't wrap my head around as being a HOFer. Excellent player, but doesn't scream all-time great to me.
Jeter missed unanimous by one vote. That vote was cast by a moron lol
Or, rather, the vote not cast was by a moron.
Curious about Scott Rolen receiving a significant bump. He's another one I can't wrap my head around as being a HOFer. Excellent player, but doesn't scream all-time great to me.
Rolen's career WAR ranks ninth best all time amongst 3B. Those who support advanced analytics consider him a no-brainer HOFer.
I don’t care if Rolen’s WAR is 9th best among 3B, he was not a hall of fame player. Aramis Ramirez had a better career than Rolen and he doesn’t belong anywhere near the HOF either
@ScoobyDoo2 said:
Larry Walker didn't do enough IMO..... injured and just short of HOF.....I don't care how much his contemporaries adored and respected him..... IT's not enough to have potential if you didn't play enough IMO.
He played more than long enough. He did play less than most HOFers not affected by WWII.
Fans are going to have to realize that with the huge salaries, players careers are going to be getting shorter.
Tremendous 5 tool player.
Congratulations Larry!!!
edited to add; Walker played in 17 seasons, only have to play in 10 to be eligible.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@81 Topps Guy said:
I don’t care if Rolen’s WAR is 9th best among 3B, he was not a hall of fame player. Aramis Ramirez had a better career than Rolen and he doesn’t belong anywhere near the HOF either
Baseball writers who are supportive of advanced analytics would agree with you regarding Ramirez because his career WAR is 32.6 :-)
All joking aside, there is a definite shift in the younger baseball writers mindset towards advanced analytics.
I saw this when looking at the vote totals and it caught my eye. Had Walker played more and had an extra 3000-4000 ABs to get closer to Jeter's totals, you can only wonder how much more similar they might have been. I never really thought of Walker as a HOFer, but didn't have that run at .400 in the mid 90s or am I mixing him up with someone else?
I collect Steve Garvey, Dodgers and signed cards. Collector since 1978.
I think the griping about the unanimous vote issue for Jeter is much ado about nothing. Quite frankly, any of a huge number of previous HOF inductees were no-brainer, automatic guys. They should have been clear, unanimous selections and they were not. Mantle, Mays, Musial, Aaron, DiMaggio, Williams, Ryan, Brett, Jackson were all no brainers. The fact that those guys (and more) weren't unanimous is just silly. Pulling hair over Jeter not being unanimous is just something for people to talk about. Silly he wasn't also unanimous, but no more silly than Mantle or Mays not being unanimous as well.
kevin
Walker's ascent from 34.1% in 2018 to 54.6% last year to 76.6% this year is absolutely unprecedented. I really thought Schilling would get in this year after finishing with 60.9% of the votes last year, but he's now a mortal lock to get in next year, especially since there are no worthy first-year candidates in 2021. I'm also glad to see Rolen getting more love from the voters because he's definitely a HOFer in my book. Ditto for Wagner. Hopefully his numbers will start to climb as well.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
The 1993 Finest set now contains 34 different HOF players. Not too shabby!
Rickey Henderson, Ozzie Smith, George Brett, Paul Molitor, Tony Gwynn, Wade Boggs, Cal Ripken, Dennis Eckersley, Ryne Sandberg, Nolan Ryan, Eddie Murray, Carlton Fisk, Dave Winfield, Robin Yount, Andre Dawson, Roberto Alomar, Barry Larkin, Frank Thomas, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, Craig Biggio, Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey, Jr., Mike Piazza, Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Ivan Rodriguez, Alan Trammell, Harold Baines, Lee Smith, Edgar Martinez, Mike Mussina and Larry Walker
Always looking for 1993-1999 Baseball Finest Refractors and1994 Football Finest Refractors. saucywombat@hotmail.com
I still say Walker doesn't deserve it. He had only 2160 hits and 383 HRs and that’s with the Coors Field effect during his prime. I read yesterday he was a “five tool” guy but he got zero gold gloves and only stole 30 bases once. If the rationale for his counting stats being underwhelming is “he didn’t play enough,” then why are we keeping out mattingly and Munson? Not that I think they should be in either....
Considering Larry Walker had a higher career WAR than Jeter and it took him 10 years to finally be elected at all, yeah, missing 100% by only one vote on the first ballot was a Yankee gift. Trammell, five spots behind Jeter in Pos Player career WAR had to wait for the Vets Committee after never seeing higher than 41% in writers votes. I'm not saying Jeter isn't a worthy HOFer, but him being the first position player to get 100% first ballot would have been silly.
ARod, without PED taint, would be a much better 100% first ballot HOFer.
New here and love the conversation. I have mixed feelings about Jeter not being unanimous. Seems like Rivera shouldn't have been given the greats from the past. However, I have invested in Jeter cards recently and was hoping for a bump in prices last night. Rivera's card prices jumped when he was announced. I think the non-unanimous vote plus the flood of common Jeter cards knocked the prices down - lots of card prices down 30%+ last night. It's like a company that has a fantastic quarter but doesn't meet analysts' expectations so the stock price tanks. Hopefully Jeter prices will recover and be a good long-term investment. So glad I didn't sell anything last night!
@DBesse27 said:
I still say Walker doesn't deserve it. He had only 2160 hits and 383 HRs and that’s with the Coors Field effect during his prime. I read yesterday he was a “five tool” guy but he got zero gold gloves and only stole 30 bases once. If the rationale for his counting stats being underwhelming is “he didn’t play enough,” then why are we keeping out mattingly and Munson? Not that I think they should be in either....
Does 7 Gold Gloves do it for you and how about 154 outfield assists? Check your stats, please. At the end of the day, we all have our biases and we can’t vote anyways.
@DBesse27 said:
I still say Walker doesn't deserve it. He had only 2160 hits and 383 HRs and that’s with the Coors Field effect during his prime. I read yesterday he was a “five tool” guy but he got zero gold gloves and only stole 30 bases once. If the rationale for his counting stats being underwhelming is “he didn’t play enough,” then why are we keeping out mattingly and Munson? Not that I think they should be in either....
Does 7 Gold Gloves do it for you and how about 154 outfield assists? Check your stats, please. At the end of the day, we all have our biases and we can’t vote anyways.
The site I looked at said zero gold gloves. If he won 7 GGs then yes, that changes my mind quite a bit. Double checking now....
@DBesse27 said:
I still say Walker doesn't deserve it. He had only 2160 hits and 383 HRs and that’s with the Coors Field effect during his prime. I read yesterday he was a “five tool” guy but he got zero gold gloves and only stole 30 bases once. If the rationale for his counting stats being underwhelming is “he didn’t play enough,” then why are we keeping out mattingly and Munson? Not that I think they should be in either....
Does 7 Gold Gloves do it for you and how about 154 outfield assists? Check your stats, please. At the end of the day, we all have our biases and we can’t vote anyways.
You’re right, I’m wrong. He did win 7. Since I need to eat crow, does anybody know any good recipes?
@DBesse27 said:
I still say Walker doesn't deserve it. He had only 2160 hits and 383 HRs and that’s with the Coors Field effect during his prime. I read yesterday he was a “five tool” guy but he got zero gold gloves and only stole 30 bases once. If the rationale for his counting stats being underwhelming is “he didn’t play enough,” then why are we keeping out mattingly and Munson? Not that I think they should be in either....
Does 7 Gold Gloves do it for you and how about 154 outfield assists? Check your stats, please. At the end of the day, we all have our biases and we can’t vote anyways.
You’re right, I’m wrong. He did win 7. Since I need to eat crow, does anybody know any good recipes?
@DBesse27 said:
I still say Walker doesn't deserve it. He had only 2160 hits and 383 HRs and that’s with the Coors Field effect during his prime. I read yesterday he was a “five tool” guy but he got zero gold gloves and only stole 30 bases once. If the rationale for his counting stats being underwhelming is “he didn’t play enough,” then why are we keeping out mattingly and Munson? Not that I think they should be in either....
Admittedly, I struggle with letting go the classic benchmarks for HOF eligibility such as 300 wins, 3000 Ks, 500 HRs, or 3000 hits but that's essentially what advanced analytics is trying to accomplish. Mattingly and Munson have career WARs in the 40s while Walker has a career WAR in the 70s. Comparing Mattingly to a contemporary in his era, Wade Boggs, is bad news for Mattingly. Boggs' career WAR is 91.4.
C.C. Sabathia is the perfect example of where counting stats and advanced analytics disagree. His career WAR is 63 but the guy struck out over 3K hitters and logged 251 wins. His career WAR is 49th overall in MLB history with quite a few pitchers in the HOF below him including Sandy Koufax. Koufax ranks 89th with quite a few pitchers in between that are not in the HOF including Tommy John, David Cone, Mark Buehrle, Bret Saberhagen, Chuck Finley, Tim Hudson, and Kevin Appier.
While I understand the philosophy and math behind the advanced analytics, I still struggle to feel like it is the right answer. A perfect example is Billy Wagner. His career WAR is 27.8 which is quite a bit lower than Rivera (56.3) and Eckersley (62.2), but on par with Hoffman (28.1), Smith (29.3), and Fingers (25.0).
Honestly, when I think about this stuff it makes my head hurt!
@81 Topps Guy said:
I don’t care if Rolen’s WAR is 9th best among 3B, he was not a hall of fame player. Aramis Ramirez had a better career than Rolen and he doesn’t belong anywhere near the HOF either
Career OPS+ of 122, 316 HR, and 8 Gold Gloves? That's a HOF career.
@steel75 said:
When did the Hall Of Fame turn into the Hall of "he was pretty good"?
Career WAR, 7 year peak WAR, and JAWS all show Walker as higher rated than Jeter. The Vets Committee is responsible for most of the "pretty good" selections, but the voters got this one correct.
@81 Topps Guy said:
I don’t care if Rolen’s WAR is 9th best among 3B, he was not a hall of fame player. Aramis Ramirez had a better career than Rolen and he doesn’t belong anywhere near the HOF either
Career OPS+ of 122, 316 HR, and 8 Gold Gloves? That's a HOF career.
Agree, he's above the average HOF 3B in the advanced stats too.
@steel75 said:
When did the Hall Of Fame turn into the Hall of "he was pretty good"?
Career WAR, 7 year peak WAR, and JAWS all show Walker as higher rated than Jeter. The Vets Committee is responsible for most of the "pretty good" selections, but the voters got this one correct.
I agree. I believe some folks have put HOFs into tiers: got in on his 10th; first attempt with %ge; vet committee voted in etc. That’s ok and I think we all have some opinion as to a high-end HOF vs a just making the cut HOF (say, like a PSA 7 52 Mantle versus a low-end/Authentic). To the players that just get in, I am unsure if they care. I am happy for Larry and his family and fans.
So the Mr October of pitching is once again left out. This is so stupid...what matters is what he did on the baseball field, not his political views being a little different than some of the writers.
@3stars said:
I predict there will be one writer who is so desperate for attention that he leaves Jeter off his/her ballot.
Good call, but why does anyone care? The 100% vote has been cast with Rivera.
As long as you're in it doesn't matter what percentage of votes you got.
Maybe he wanted Rivera to remain the only unanimous HOFer...just like how in the 1820 Presidential election, James Monroe was almost elected unanimously (as the Federalist party was dead by this point and no new opposition party had taken its place yet, there was no serious opposition)...but one elector in NH cast his electoral vote for John Quincy Adams. Legend has it (this has not been confirmed one way or the other) that he did this on purpose so George Washington remained the only unanimously elected President.
And I bet that was even more true before Rivera's history making election. After all if none of the original five from 1936 got in unanimously, why should anyone? Plus if a voter really needs the max ten votes he might skip voting for one of the sure locks and instead use it on a candidate who "needs it more".
The fact that, of the obvious 1st ballot HOF'ers, Rivera is the only unanimous choice shows there are members of the PBWA that don't understand what the "P" stands for.
I recall a writer for one of the suburban Philly papers (not the Inquirer or Daily News) didn't vote for Schmidt because he snubbed the writer one time (or something similarly petty). I recall trying to get through when he was on WIP to explain how professional his decision was. His editor should have fired him on the spot.
@81 Topps Guy said:
I don’t care if Rolen’s WAR is 9th best among 3B, he was not a hall of fame player. Aramis Ramirez had a better career than Rolen and he doesn’t belong anywhere near the HOF either
You obviously never saw Rolen play. He was the Nolan Arenado of his time. A masher at the plate and an absolute magician at third base.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
If it comes to pass that Bonds/Clemens do not get in w/in the 10 year window, and are relegated to the vets comm. for enshrinement,this may be a way that the holdout voters express their "penance" to Bonds/Clemens. Yes, you got in but will not have done so in the customary/expected way. Have to wonder if in their minds, once enshrined, will they have a diminished feeling for the award due to not getting in w/in the 10 year window.
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@BLUEJAYWAY said:
If it comes to pass that Bonds/Clemens do not get in w/in the 10 year window, and are relegated to the vets comm. for enshrinement,this may be a way that the holdout voters express their "penance" to Bonds/Clemens. Yes, you got in but will not have done so in the customary/expected way. Have to wonder if in their minds, once enshrined, will they have a diminished feeling for the award due to not getting in w/in the 10 year window.
The veterans might not let them in either. ,
Ted Williams tried to discuss getting Joe Jackson in and was rejected.
No Bonds for sure, Clemens a little less sure about.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@81 Topps Guy said:
I don’t care if Rolen’s WAR is 9th best among 3B, he was not a hall of fame player. Aramis Ramirez had a better career than Rolen and he doesn’t belong anywhere near the HOF either
You obviously never saw Rolen play. He was the Nolan Arenado of his time. A masher at the plate and an absolute magician at third base.
It might be a case of two halves of careers. I don't think of Rolen as a HOFer, but I may be thinking more of the 2nd half of his career than the 1st. Sometimes, guys hold on for too long and you tend to remember what is most recent. I had to go remind myself how good his stats were in his 20's.
There is one poster who always admonishes my "I watched them play" comments. I don't care. Here goes.
Watching them play .....
..... I always thought Todd Helton was a better hitter than Larry Walker.
..... Scott Rolan is in the conversation as the best defensive 3rd baseman ever.
.... Dale Murphy was dominant enough, even for a short period, to be in the HoF.
..... don't think Billy Wagner makes it but damn that guy through cheese.
.... Jeff Kent was no Joe Morgan.
.... I don't understand the support for Dwight Evans (and I'm a Sox fan).
.... I always thought Jeter would be unanimous and am shocked he wasn't after Rivera was (and I'm a Sox fan).
@GreenSneakers said:
There is one poster who always admonishes my "I watched them play" comments. I don't care. Here goes.
Watching them play .....
..... I always thought Todd Helton was a better hitter than Larry Walker.
..... Scott Rolan is in the conversation as the best defensive 3rd baseman ever.
.... Dale Murphy was dominant enough, even for a short period, to be in the HoF.
..... don't think Billy Wagner makes it but damn that guy through cheese.
.... Jeff Kent was no Joe Morgan.
.... I don't understand the support for Dwight Evans (and I'm a Sox fan).
.... I always thought Jeter would be unanimous and am shocked he wasn't after Rivera was (and I'm a Sox fan).
FWIW, Walker’s OPS+ is 8 points higher than Helton’s.
Comments
Bonds & Clemens already got into the HOF when the writers allowed Pudge, Bagwell and Piazza in when they all had steroid allegations .... it will take to year 10 but they are in IMO.
Wagner has flipped more votes his direction this round than Walker and Kent is one shy (with Helton one behind him), I'd say they're doing pretty well. Kent is quickly running out of years though.
Their support is also pretty consistent throughout the voting pool too w/no more than a 1.2% difference between the pre-results and actual last year.
Projections are still holding steady with 30 min to go. Walker is trending toward the low end (finishing 7 votes shy @ 73.4%), Schilling toward the high end (picking up 34), Clemens/Bonds looking slightly better (picking up 17-19). Konerko the only one besides Abreu with even a 2nd vote at this point.
I just saw on MLB channel where 3 experts including Peter Gammons all said definitively that Bonds and Clemens would not be getting into the HOF within year 10..... so what i said above ... is a long shot I guess....
Congratulations Larry Walker.
Hooray
Called it!
Walker in..... meh
Jeter missed unanimous by one vote. That vote was cast by a moron lol
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Nice to see Larry Walker learning of his induction on the MLB Network coverage.
Derek Jeter was, as always, first class in discussing the honor.
saucywombat@hotmail.com
To the writer who didn't vote for Jeter...
Or, rather, the vote not cast was by a moron.
Curious about Scott Rolen receiving a significant bump. He's another one I can't wrap my head around as being a HOFer. Excellent player, but doesn't scream all-time great to me.
I assume my check is in the mail.
Rolen's career WAR ranks ninth best all time amongst 3B. Those who support advanced analytics consider him a no-brainer HOFer.
Personal Collection | Willie Woodburn | Legion of Doom
I don’t care if Rolen’s WAR is 9th best among 3B, he was not a hall of fame player. Aramis Ramirez had a better career than Rolen and he doesn’t belong anywhere near the HOF either
He played more than long enough. He did play less than most HOFers not affected by WWII.
Fans are going to have to realize that with the huge salaries, players careers are going to be getting shorter.
Tremendous 5 tool player.
Congratulations Larry!!!
edited to add; Walker played in 17 seasons, only have to play in 10 to be eligible.
Jeter’s 1st dinger Opening Day 1996 in Cleveland
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Good call, but why does anyone care? The 100% vote has been cast with Rivera.
As long as you're in it doesn't matter what percentage of votes you got.
Baseball writers who are supportive of advanced analytics would agree with you regarding Ramirez because his career WAR is 32.6 :-)
All joking aside, there is a definite shift in the younger baseball writers mindset towards advanced analytics.
Personal Collection | Willie Woodburn | Legion of Doom
I wonder if the dumbass who left jeter off the ballot will be outed
I saw this when looking at the vote totals and it caught my eye. Had Walker played more and had an extra 3000-4000 ABs to get closer to Jeter's totals, you can only wonder how much more similar they might have been. I never really thought of Walker as a HOFer, but didn't have that run at .400 in the mid 90s or am I mixing him up with someone else?
It was him that danced with .400. look at that run of batting averages for a few years in his prime!
Someone's vote is private and none of anyone else's business.
I think the griping about the unanimous vote issue for Jeter is much ado about nothing. Quite frankly, any of a huge number of previous HOF inductees were no-brainer, automatic guys. They should have been clear, unanimous selections and they were not. Mantle, Mays, Musial, Aaron, DiMaggio, Williams, Ryan, Brett, Jackson were all no brainers. The fact that those guys (and more) weren't unanimous is just silly. Pulling hair over Jeter not being unanimous is just something for people to talk about. Silly he wasn't also unanimous, but no more silly than Mantle or Mays not being unanimous as well.
kevin
Walker's ascent from 34.1% in 2018 to 54.6% last year to 76.6% this year is absolutely unprecedented. I really thought Schilling would get in this year after finishing with 60.9% of the votes last year, but he's now a mortal lock to get in next year, especially since there are no worthy first-year candidates in 2021. I'm also glad to see Rolen getting more love from the voters because he's definitely a HOFer in my book. Ditto for Wagner. Hopefully his numbers will start to climb as well.
The 1993 Finest set now contains 34 different HOF players. Not too shabby!
Rickey Henderson, Ozzie Smith, George Brett, Paul Molitor, Tony Gwynn, Wade Boggs, Cal Ripken, Dennis Eckersley, Ryne Sandberg, Nolan Ryan, Eddie Murray, Carlton Fisk, Dave Winfield, Robin Yount, Andre Dawson, Roberto Alomar, Barry Larkin, Frank Thomas, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, Craig Biggio, Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey, Jr., Mike Piazza, Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Ivan Rodriguez, Alan Trammell, Harold Baines, Lee Smith, Edgar Martinez, Mike Mussina and Larry Walker
saucywombat@hotmail.com
I still say Walker doesn't deserve it. He had only 2160 hits and 383 HRs and that’s with the Coors Field effect during his prime. I read yesterday he was a “five tool” guy but he got zero gold gloves and only stole 30 bases once. If the rationale for his counting stats being underwhelming is “he didn’t play enough,” then why are we keeping out mattingly and Munson? Not that I think they should be in either....
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, Dwight Evans, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
Considering Larry Walker had a higher career WAR than Jeter and it took him 10 years to finally be elected at all, yeah, missing 100% by only one vote on the first ballot was a Yankee gift. Trammell, five spots behind Jeter in Pos Player career WAR had to wait for the Vets Committee after never seeing higher than 41% in writers votes. I'm not saying Jeter isn't a worthy HOFer, but him being the first position player to get 100% first ballot would have been silly.
ARod, without PED taint, would be a much better 100% first ballot HOFer.
New here and love the conversation. I have mixed feelings about Jeter not being unanimous. Seems like Rivera shouldn't have been given the greats from the past. However, I have invested in Jeter cards recently and was hoping for a bump in prices last night. Rivera's card prices jumped when he was announced. I think the non-unanimous vote plus the flood of common Jeter cards knocked the prices down - lots of card prices down 30%+ last night. It's like a company that has a fantastic quarter but doesn't meet analysts' expectations so the stock price tanks. Hopefully Jeter prices will recover and be a good long-term investment. So glad I didn't sell anything last night!
Does 7 Gold Gloves do it for you and how about 154 outfield assists? Check your stats, please. At the end of the day, we all have our biases and we can’t vote anyways.
The site I looked at said zero gold gloves. If he won 7 GGs then yes, that changes my mind quite a bit. Double checking now....
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, Dwight Evans, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
You’re right, I’m wrong. He did win 7. Since I need to eat crow, does anybody know any good recipes?
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, Dwight Evans, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
http://www.crowbusters.com/recipes.html
Admittedly, I struggle with letting go the classic benchmarks for HOF eligibility such as 300 wins, 3000 Ks, 500 HRs, or 3000 hits but that's essentially what advanced analytics is trying to accomplish. Mattingly and Munson have career WARs in the 40s while Walker has a career WAR in the 70s. Comparing Mattingly to a contemporary in his era, Wade Boggs, is bad news for Mattingly. Boggs' career WAR is 91.4.
C.C. Sabathia is the perfect example of where counting stats and advanced analytics disagree. His career WAR is 63 but the guy struck out over 3K hitters and logged 251 wins. His career WAR is 49th overall in MLB history with quite a few pitchers in the HOF below him including Sandy Koufax. Koufax ranks 89th with quite a few pitchers in between that are not in the HOF including Tommy John, David Cone, Mark Buehrle, Bret Saberhagen, Chuck Finley, Tim Hudson, and Kevin Appier.
While I understand the philosophy and math behind the advanced analytics, I still struggle to feel like it is the right answer. A perfect example is Billy Wagner. His career WAR is 27.8 which is quite a bit lower than Rivera (56.3) and Eckersley (62.2), but on par with Hoffman (28.1), Smith (29.3), and Fingers (25.0).
Honestly, when I think about this stuff it makes my head hurt!
Personal Collection | Willie Woodburn | Legion of Doom
When did the Hall Of Fame turn into the Hall of "he was pretty good"?
Career OPS+ of 122, 316 HR, and 8 Gold Gloves? That's a HOF career.
Career WAR, 7 year peak WAR, and JAWS all show Walker as higher rated than Jeter. The Vets Committee is responsible for most of the "pretty good" selections, but the voters got this one correct.
Agree, he's above the average HOF 3B in the advanced stats too.
I agree. I believe some folks have put HOFs into tiers: got in on his 10th; first attempt with %ge; vet committee voted in etc. That’s ok and I think we all have some opinion as to a high-end HOF vs a just making the cut HOF (say, like a PSA 7 52 Mantle versus a low-end/Authentic). To the players that just get in, I am unsure if they care. I am happy for Larry and his family and fans.
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So the Mr October of pitching is once again left out. This is so stupid...what matters is what he did on the baseball field, not his political views being a little different than some of the writers.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Maybe he wanted Rivera to remain the only unanimous HOFer...just like how in the 1820 Presidential election, James Monroe was almost elected unanimously (as the Federalist party was dead by this point and no new opposition party had taken its place yet, there was no serious opposition)...but one elector in NH cast his electoral vote for John Quincy Adams. Legend has it (this has not been confirmed one way or the other) that he did this on purpose so George Washington remained the only unanimously elected President.
And I bet that was even more true before Rivera's history making election. After all if none of the original five from 1936 got in unanimously, why should anyone? Plus if a voter really needs the max ten votes he might skip voting for one of the sure locks and instead use it on a candidate who "needs it more".
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
The fact that, of the obvious 1st ballot HOF'ers, Rivera is the only unanimous choice shows there are members of the PBWA that don't understand what the "P" stands for.
I recall a writer for one of the suburban Philly papers (not the Inquirer or Daily News) didn't vote for Schmidt because he snubbed the writer one time (or something similarly petty). I recall trying to get through when he was on WIP to explain how professional his decision was. His editor should have fired him on the spot.
You obviously never saw Rolen play. He was the Nolan Arenado of his time. A masher at the plate and an absolute magician at third base.
If it comes to pass that Bonds/Clemens do not get in w/in the 10 year window, and are relegated to the vets comm. for enshrinement,this may be a way that the holdout voters express their "penance" to Bonds/Clemens. Yes, you got in but will not have done so in the customary/expected way. Have to wonder if in their minds, once enshrined, will they have a diminished feeling for the award due to not getting in w/in the 10 year window.
The veterans might not let them in either. ,
Ted Williams tried to discuss getting Joe Jackson in and was rejected.
No Bonds for sure, Clemens a little less sure about.
It might be a case of two halves of careers. I don't think of Rolen as a HOFer, but I may be thinking more of the 2nd half of his career than the 1st. Sometimes, guys hold on for too long and you tend to remember what is most recent. I had to go remind myself how good his stats were in his 20's.
There is one poster who always admonishes my "I watched them play" comments. I don't care. Here goes.
Watching them play .....
..... I always thought Todd Helton was a better hitter than Larry Walker.
..... Scott Rolan is in the conversation as the best defensive 3rd baseman ever.
.... Dale Murphy was dominant enough, even for a short period, to be in the HoF.
..... don't think Billy Wagner makes it but damn that guy through cheese.
.... Jeff Kent was no Joe Morgan.
.... I don't understand the support for Dwight Evans (and I'm a Sox fan).
.... I always thought Jeter would be unanimous and am shocked he wasn't after Rivera was (and I'm a Sox fan).
Helton lost power 2nd half of his career.
FWIW, Walker’s OPS+ is 8 points higher than Helton’s.