Question: If/When the USM Produces a Colorized "Coin"...Should the TPGs Refuse to Grade It?
RichR
Posts: 3,864 ✭✭✭✭✭
To start off...I'll say yes, the TPGs should not be grading colorized coins/novelties,,,for one thing, how is the actual surface of the coin be examined and analyzed if it's now covered by enamel or another surface substance.
Plus they're Just gimmicky and tacky...tacky...tacky...
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They will grade them. They are in business to grade not to regulate taste.
Agree.
Other countries (Canada particularly) have produced numerous colorized coins. Does any TPGS refuse to slab those?
If this happens...how does that not invalidate the entire "surface condition" issue...you're not actually examining the coin itself, but rather an artificially added surface shell. To make a comparison, how would this be different than examining and grading a coin while it was still inside a plastic holder?
Consider heavily toned silver coins. They are graded yet hidden distractions are often overlooked.
As far as I know all of the top 4 TPGs do grade colorized coins. And I don’t see any issue with it.
Besides Canada, a bunch of other countries have colorized coins.
Here is an example from Australia graded by PCGS:
https://www.pcgs.com/valueview/1-dollar-1999-date/2014-p-1-kookaburra-colorized-australian-outback/5097?sn=539505&h=pop
The "coin itself" is whatever the mint issues. If they issue a hunk of pot metal with a blob of paint on it, that's what the coin is, and that's what should be graded.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Because toning adds a little but forgives a lot per HRH.
I might buy one, as long as CAC color-coordinates their sticker to the coin's surface color.
This reflects a certain...ah...limited viewpoint. The surface of the coin is the surface of the coin, whether colorized or not, it is the TOP layer. Colorization does NOT mean painting. It is possible, for example, to introduce color with alloy changes or vapor deposition. Coins themselves don't even need to be made out of metal. There are porcelain notgeld, for example.
As others have stated, this isn't a question worth asking. Colorized coins are not new nor is their slabbing. The sexiest slab of all time:
I know NCLT isn't everyone's fare. I encourage people to get their noses out of the air, however. NCLT is fun, pretty, and might actually attract people who end up as classic coin collectors.
Only if they stay between the lines.
Here's an example of a slabbed token with no metal surface. It's not about the "metal surface", it's about the degree of preservation regardless of manufacture.
nope. Everyone grades them.
From our hosts!
I think you'll be able to work out the answer for yourself. Think of a modern "Frosted" proof. In this case the die was "enhanced" at the Mint before the coin was struck. It has an "as made surface." When a Mint colorizes a coin - AFTER it was struck - it also has an "as made" surface. As long as that surface is pristine,,,
Coins that are colorized "unofficially" have altered surfaces. They are also graded by at least one major TPGS.
once colorized it is no longer a coin, it has become a novelty token
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
THANK YOU!!! EXACTLY!
And if the color is the result of bullion or metallic composition...I actually don't have an issue with that. But re enameling or other surface additives...that's altering the integral coin beneath.
NUTS! Novelty or not, the COIN is still legal tender.
A dollar bill is legal tender, yet it is not a coin. Legal tender has nothing to do with a coin and everything to do with money. USS Navy ships have commemorative coins struck, but are they really coins or are they novelty tokens. What makes a coin a coin is it's actual use as money.
Colorized coins are issued by government mints as a collectible novelty, and only because people will buy them. Mint puts the legal tender dressing on them because the mint is limited on what it can strike that is not legal tender. Like comic books, they are graded because customers will pay for the service. If enough people wanted match books graded, a TPG or two would likely not turn away the revenue.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
So what! It is an actual COIN with actual monetary value as issued by an official government. You should take a look on the Internet at all the COINS that some consider novelties. Most sell for far above their "value" because they are novelties containing gems, meteorites, minerals, and enamel! Give it up.
So try spending one and let me know how that works out for ya.
The definition of a coin includes "something used as money." While colorized coins issued by a government mint with all the "legal" dressing could be used as money, they actually are not used as money. Their "use" is reserved to collecting.
I really don't care what any one else calls a coin. I've given you my reasons why I don't consider it a coin. And when the mint calls it a coin on it's website it still won't be a coin to me.
Hypothetic: If a person collected only colorized coins would you consider them a numismatist?
Should TPGs grade them? Why not, they grade comic books.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
I'm generally not a fan of colorized coins but I've made an exception for the hand painted offerings from the Cuban Mint.
To argue whether or not these are coins would be a waste of earth time for me.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
Colorized by a recognized government mint, grade them. Colorized by some organization to sell them at a profit, don't grade them.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
Gold Shield!
LOL, I'm not stupid. I was born at night but not last night.
Those novelties are all worth more than their denomination! Nevertheless, I'll guarantee that a stupid or a very wealthy person can spend one in their country of origin. If folks wish to keep them and not spend them, that's their business and does not change anything. Example: I'm not going to spend the Buffalo nickel on my desk because I don't choose to.
If a person collected only colorized coins would I consider them a numismatist? In the strict definition of the word - NO. They would be a coin collector. Furthermore, based on what I'm reading, there is only a 60 -40 chance I would consider you
a numismatist in the strictest sense. See, I get your point; but your question has nothing to do with novelty COINS that can be spent to buy something = they are money.
AS for this: "And when the mint calls it a coin on it's website it still won't be a coin to me."
so, what's your answer to the question. "If a person collected only colorized coins would you consider them a numismatist?"
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
Canada releases the first glow-in-the-dark coin into circulation
A new glow-in-the-dark coin is the first of its kind entered into circulation, according to the Royal Canadian Mint.
The CA$2 “toonie” features a view of the blue-green aurora borealis above two canoeists paddling along a tree-lined lake. In the dark, the special ink used to produce the image illuminates the northern lights.
The mint has struck a number of special edition glow-in-the-dark coins in the past, but the new toonie is the first to be put in circulation.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/27/canada-released-glow-in-the-dark-coin-150-year-anniversary.html
Australia has also issued colorized coins for circulation.
His answer was that you aren't a numismatist either.
"Coin collector" is not synonymous with "numismatist".
If a person only collects exonumia, I take it they aren't numismatists either.
I only hope you have as much fun looking down on people as we do collecting NCLT.
Me: Man, 2020 is going to be a great year!
*reads this thread
Me:
Yea, I see he went back and edited in his answer between the first and second time I asked the question.
So it's OK for you and your buddy to form your own opinion of what a numismatist is. And he is free to determine, based on my opinion of comic book coins, that I'm not a numismatist, yet I'm the one "looking down on people" because I clearly state that IT'S MY opinion that novelty coins are not really coins? So who is really the one looking down on others. LOL
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
Yawn, I already answered that. I'll make it even more simple for you:
NO
So, if they just collect them, I call them a collector. If they study them in some fashion like how they are colorized and produced, they are a numismatist. If they publish their study, teach or lecture about what they have learned, they are an advanced numismatist.
Yes but are you a numismatist?
Sure you did, with an edit after I asked the second time. You funny as well as smarter than everyone else. LOL
I stand by my opinion in my first post to the thread on this topic: "once colorized it is no longer a coin, it has become a novelty token."
Obviously I hurt the feelings of at least two collectors of these tokens. Suck it up buttercup, life is tough.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
@derryb said: "Yea, I see he went back and edited in his answer between the first and second time I asked the question."
I edited my answer to add this:
"AS for this: "And when the mint calls it a coin on it's website it still won't be a coin to me."
Its a very watered-down version of the reply I first added and much more PC. You have raised very good questions in a respectful way and deserve the same.
@derryb said: " You funny and smarter than everyone else."
Thank you and yes, in my own mind. Now, take a look at the Countermark/Counterstamp thread and you'll see an example of me learning new things from folks much smarter than I.
Hey, it wasn't my opinion. It was his. I have a much looser definition of numismatist. I think we all count, at least a little bit.
So, if I take an 1889 Morgan dollar and colorize it, it's no longer a coin?
Not when laid out on the table with Morgans that have not been colorized. Just for fun, colorize one and send it to our host for grading. Of course it appears that to them It depends on WHO colorized the coin.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
I can now see the whole discussion went sour when you assumed that I thought you should have the same opinion as do I on colorized coins. When others disagree with you don't take it as an insult.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
No / they should grade them. Are they good sellers / strong profit makers?
I do not have a problem with a TPG grading a coin that was colorized at the Mint........and not in EDM's chemical plant.
But can someone please post a well circulated example so that we can critique the Mint's paint job. The wear on their paint may cause the coin to degrade very rapidly in circulation.......
OINK
A few years ago, I arrived at a point where I didn't really care anymore about anything from the mint that wasn't intended to circulate in the service of commerce. Prior to 1965, I might add. But if colorized coins float your boat, collect away!
I think some Canadian coins may be instructive here as I believe they have placed colorized coins into circulation.
And this is what it has now lead to for 2020!
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
But is it a coin?
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
It must be, it's in a COIN slab!
No, they'd still slab it...in a details holder. LOL.
It is a Fijian FJD$1 and I would guess you could buy something with it, in Fiji.