1915 Medal Panama-Pacific Expo CA Souvenir Penny

coinsarefun

WHAT??? PENNY you say????
yep.
This is probably my last purchase for the year, unless I get lucky on some of my snipes.....fingers crossed.
I like the Indian Motif and I think.......not sure this is one of the "want to be" So called dollar
as the link here
I haven't really found any solid research materials for this purchase but I love when it says PURE COPPER.......
I did however find this snippet by an online seller Tipsico Coin LLC give the below info on it and I pretty much would agree with his statements.
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"This served as a souvenir for both the Panama-Pacific International Exposition in San Francisco, and the smaller Panama-California Exposition in San Diego. I actually found a catalog reference to this piece; it is listed as CALIF 760 A, in "Large Lucky Souvenir Coins" by Stephen Alpert (1979, probably out of print now). 45mm diameter, 2mm thick and about 35 grams (just over One Ounce). These were privately struck although the manufacturer is unknown. Some evidence suggests that these were made in Southern California, and I suspect that they may have been struck off by L. A. Rubber Stamp or a predecessor. In any case, struck in pure Copper, and while these do show up (commonly in about brown EF condition), these are very scarce anywhere close to Uncirculated, especially if they show any of the original Red color"
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Does anyone have the catalog that is referenced above? I found it on Ebay for $10 and although not expensive I wanted to know if it is truly listed. I have found in my research there has been at least 10 different ones with an Indian design on the obverse.
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Anyways if someone can give any additional info I would love to hear it.
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This is the 1915 Medal Panama-Pacific Expo CA Souvenir Penny in coin facts
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Zoins

Great looking Souvenir Penny! I've seen these around and I'm curious about it but have no information. I also love how it says "FIRST AMERICAN" on the headdress in addition to the "PURE COPPER". For more info, I would ask Jeff Shevlin / @SoCalledGuy, Bill Hyder, or John Raymond. You can Jeff and Bill at http://www.so-calleddollar.com/ .

Regarding it being potentially struck by L. A. Rubber Stamp as theorized by Alex A. Pancheco, do we know if LA Rubber Stamp issued tokens without their name? Most of the tokens I've seen, like the Santa Monica Breakwater So-Called Dollar have their name stamped on the tokens (like Whitehead & Hoag).

At first I was confused and thought your token and the CoinFacts token were the same! I like how they are similar but different. One has the sun over the mountains and the other as the sun over the sea!

I'm also really impressed that PCGS would certify this as there's no catalog number listed. They are really making strides in exonumia now.

• https://www.pcgs.com/cert/35381533

Here's the TrueView:

291fifth

It looks like a cheap imitation that may have been sold to tourists in booths located outside the fairgrounds. (This is pure speculation. I would love to know the real story behind it.)

BillDugan1959

x

topstuf

I used to have a Pontiac Indian.

coinsarefun

Thanks @Zoins I will try. I did find this link here The second from last is mine....JX-LPS
“Panama-Pacific & Panama California Expositions 1915″(obv) 1.75” w/Indian Head “First American” on headband – Des.Pat.Apld. Pure Copper “Souvenir Penny of California” (rev) w/State Seal & Sunrise
And the very last is the one in Coinfacts JX-LPV “Panama Pacific International Exposition
As you can see there are 9 or 10 different Indian designs
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@291fifth thanks but I don't feel this is a cheap imitation as the detail is rather nice. Could be an imitation tho
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But then again most felt that #7 in this listJ X-ECO
Reproduction of “United States of America – Fifty Dollars” Gold Coin “In God We Trust – MCMXV” – 1.8″ Gold-plated Medallion – Reverse image of Owl “Annual Convtn Coca-Cola Bottling Co. – MCMXV”
was a cheap imitation for years but glad to see NGC and PCGS slabbing these
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Not sure why my true view does not appear in coin facts Also this is NOT 1970's, rather 1965 as stated in the article written in Coin World
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291fifth

My calling it a a "cheap imitation" is a reference to the crude artwork involved.

ThePennyLady

I also have the brass version of this piece.

CaptainBlunt

Farran Zerbe served as the head of the coin and medal department of the PPIE

In an interoffice memo dated Sept 23, 1915 from Zerbe to the Comptroller

He stated that “this Department has received your letter in reference
to the Treasury Exhibit requesting
additional metal so that their minting demonstrations may be continued longer each day and that additional metal at an expenditure
not to exceed more than $10 per
week to be supplied for this purpose

On inquiry I learn that 350lbs
of copper in addition to what is now in process will be sufficient to permit this longer time demonstration to the close of the Exposition; this quantity of copper
to the value of $64.75 had been
requisitioned and delivered to
the Treasury Exhibit

                    Farran Zerbe

Was the minting demonstration where the cents were struck?

coinsarefun

Well, I went ahead and purchased the book on eBay for $13. Hopefully there will be some info
in it but I am concerned as the book is titled “Lucky” coins. Mine is not a “lucky’ piece.

tokenpro

I have Steve Alpert's "Large Lucky Coins" booklet buried away among the catalogs that I rarely use. I'm pretty sure that the OP piece is listed but it will be one of the very few copper or aluminum pieces in the catalog and don't expect any additional useful information. The emphasis is on the large souvenir pieces often available at tourist sites and gift stores. I have included images of a few pieces that were at hand. Earlier pieces were made in the U.S. but many of the post-WWII pieces are from Japan:

This is an earlier piece that uses an insert or "slip" die to easily change the location name and is signed by the K & O Co., Made In U.S.A.:

This unusual 1926 Lincoln piece uses a different type of insert die with the circular center section of the reverse subject to change:

Nickels, dollars and other denoms are less frequently encountered but are not scarce, this one is chromed lead (an EPA nightmare):

This thin piece is more typical of the imports from Japan, copper plated lead:

This is a modern cast piece in aluminum actually done on site at the Museum:

There are hundreds of different pieces with multiple reverses, dates, etc -- collectible, yes - popular, not really. The Alpert catalog does provide a # for the listed items but you will be hard pressed to find many collectors that own the catalog much less use the numbers. Steve was interested in the subject and, being a college prof at one time, attempted to organize the material -- but it is an inexpensive collecting opportunity for someone so inclined with the downside being that postage costs about the same as the items.

Zoins

Great post @tokenpro . Lots of great medals and information. I agree a big challenge is cataloging inexpensive tokens and getting people to use the numbers. It would great if there was a nice, inexpensive way to do that. It would be nice if there was an online catalog or something. Some of the rarer references are pretty hard to find for many to start using.

coinsarefun

Thanks @tokenpro I’ll post it when I get it. If anything it may refresh your memory.

tokenpro

@coinsarefun said:
Thanks @tokenpro I’ll post it when I get it. If anything it may refresh your memory.

My memory says that it has a yellow cover -- I honestly haven't looked at that booklet for 15+ years -- I guess we'll see if my color palette recollection is gone as well...

coinsarefun

I was trying to find more info online and didn’t find much. However the
description of the reverse says “Des.Pat.Apld.” and “Pure Copper” on the other side.
Mine does not have the “Des.Pat.Apld.” On left side of the reverse. I wonder if mine is an
earlier or later die?

Below is a reverse that has the “Des.Pat.Apld.” On the left reverse. I don’t see any other difference.
And, @Zoins i agree with you when you said it’s doubtful that L A Stamp created this. Simply, because
their name is not on it.
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CaptainBlunt

See my above post
Found additional info-letter

Zerbe to Comptroller June 2 1915

Letter of Chief Special Agent Treasury Department returned here with
The Exposition has reimbursed the
Treasury Department for bronze metal as per their
invoices of a total weight of 2564 lbs. One thousand finished medals weighs 57 lbs. The metal purchased
would make approximately 45,000
medals. So far this Department has only taken over 10,000 bronze medals.

Counting this 10,000 and taking into
account the 10,000 reported by the Treasury Agent as ready for delivery
and with liberal allowance for wastage and shrinkage in process
the Treasury Department should still have sufficient untreated metal
to continue coining demonstrations

So as to be effective when necessary please promptly
inform the Treasury Agent Mr. Harbaugh that it is the desire
of the Exposition to have the medals re-melted and re-coined as often as practicable and as may be
needed to continue minting demonstrations.

September 10, 1915
addressed to the President of the
Panama-Pacific International
Exposition
From a Treasury Dept. Official

For some time past the exhibit of the U.S. Mint in the Palace of Mines has been running on short hours
owing to the lack of a supply of
metal. Under such arrangements
your company purchases and
turns over to the Mint such metal
as is now being used.

This exhibit has proved to be one of the most interesting attractions of an educational character offered by
the United States Government at your Exposition and I think it should be kept in full operation at least five hours daily. At present the demonstrations extend over only a period of four hours, with only a portion of the machinery in operation.

It is estimated that to run the exhibit in a satisfactory manner
for five hours a day, say from 10 to 12 a.m. and from 1 to 4 p.m. would
require a weekly expenditure of not to exceed $10.00 for copper and zinc-the metals employed in making the Exposition souvenir medals which the exhibit turns out. I have
to inquire whether in order to maintain a credible exhibit your
company is willing to incur an expenditure limited to the amount
named per week...

johnny9434

theres a lot of cool looking stuff here. its good to see that

Meltdown

I've got a small collection of "lucky pennies" myself. I didn't realize there was a catalog for these. Interesting topic for sure. Maybe I'll take some pics.

Zoins

@Meltdown said:
I've got a small collection of "lucky pennies" myself. I didn't realize there was a catalog for these. Interesting topic for sure. Maybe I'll take some pics.

That would be awesome

It seems like there are so many of these that the more we know the better!

tokenpro

@CaptainBlunt said:

See my above post
Found additional info-letter

Zerbe to Comptroller June 2 1915

Letter of Chief Special Agent Treasury Department returned here with
The Exposition has reimbursed the
Treasury Department for bronze metal as per their
invoices of a total weight of 2564 lbs. One thousand finished medals weighs 57 lbs. The metal purchased
would make approximately 45,000
medals. So far this Department has only taken over 10,000 bronze medals.

Counting this 10,000 and taking into
account the 10,000 reported by the Treasury Agent as ready for delivery
and with liberal allowance for wastage and shrinkage in process
the Treasury Department should still have sufficient untreated metal
to continue coining demonstrations

So as to be effective when necessary please promptly
inform the Treasury Agent Mr. Harbaugh that it is the desire
of the Exposition to have the medals re-melted and re-coined as often as practicable and as may be
needed to continue minting demonstrations.

September 10, 1915
addressed to the President of the
Panama-Pacific International
Exposition
From a Treasury Dept. Official

For some time past the exhibit of the U.S. Mint in the Palace of Mines has been running on short hours
owing to the lack of a supply of
metal. Under such arrangements
your company purchases and
turns over to the Mint such metal
as is now being used.

This exhibit has proved to be one of the most interesting attractions of an educational character offered by
the United States Government at your Exposition and I think it should be kept in full operation at least five hours daily. At present the demonstrations extend over only a period of four hours, with only a portion of the machinery in operation.

It is estimated that to run the exhibit in a satisfactory manner
for five hours a day, say from 10 to 12 a.m. and from 1 to 4 p.m. would
require a weekly expenditure of not to exceed $10.00 for copper and zinc-the metals employed in making the Exposition souvenir medals which the exhibit turns out. I have
to inquire whether in order to maintain a credible exhibit your
company is willing to incur an expenditure limited to the amount
named per week...

I would suspect that this letter is in reference to planchets for striking So-Called Dollar HK-400 which was struck in the Mint Exhibit referred to in the letter. The silver and gold plated versions (HK-399 & 401) were struck at the Philadelphia Mint and shipped out. The request for more planchets may be one reason that the bronze pieces occur in several different finishes. I have not seen any reports that the different finishes were offered for sale individually. There is no other report of which I am aware of additional medals struck on the Mint Exhibit press.

Several different companies (Robbins, Whitehead & Hoag, Greenduck, etc.) struck the private State Fund medals as well as other listed H&K medals.

Zoins

Good info @tokenpro . Here's what HK-400 looks like for everyone's reference:

tokenpro

Although struck by the U.S. Mint, I forgot to mention that Medallic Art Co. (MACO) made the dies for this Official Medal for the exposition. (Thx, Bill Hyder)

Zoins

@tokenpro said:
Although struck by the U.S. Mint, I forgot to mention that Medallic Art Co. (MACO) made the dies for this Official Medal for the exposition. (Thx, Bill Hyder)

Robert Aitken is the sculptor for this medal and won $1,000 in a contest for the design. Do we have any records of or plasters for other submission designs?

coinsarefun

Interesting examples @tokenpro , thanks for posting them. Are any of these solid copper?
Also, all of them seem to be cast not struck. Is this true?
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My original example posted is one of the the smaller diameter medal’s in Steve Alpert's "Large Lucky Coins" booklet. It arrived today and was looking through it. It’s very vague. It’s almost like my example doesn’t belong in that classification because it was struck but I’m probably wrong.

coinsarefun

Would anyone like to try and explain why on all of the reverse’s I could find
says “Des.Pat.Apld.” and “Pure Copper” on the reverse and
mine does not?. Is it something (special) worth looking into?
And, to me it looks like there is a slight difference in the mountains.
Also, the PURE COPPER is different too.
Maybe 2 reverse dies or reworked?
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Mine.
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An example I found online.
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coinsarefun

OLD THREAD warning

Since the other thread should be tied together for reference I thought to link it.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1052683/lucky-pennies-made-in-japan#latest