Let's design the four year course requirements to receive a BS in numismatics.
Insider2
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This may turn out to be the start of something or a big bust. Nevertheless, with all our different backgrounds and experiences it should be fun to see what we come up with at the end when all our ideas are distilled and edited into an actual college syllabus to obtain a BS in Numismatics.
With the talent here we should be able to come up with an unimprovable course. First I propose a four-year course comprised of eight semesters (Freshman to Senior). Each semester will have four classes (3-4 credits each). The classes will go up in complexity and some specialization is offered in the Junior or Senior year. Perhaps, one or two summer internships at a TPGS or coin dealer will be required.
Freshman: A &B semester
Sophmore: C & D
Junior: E & F
Senior: G & H
We'll use the letters later to plug in the classes in the order we decide on.
Just as a start, before dividing the topics into what year of the four/what half of the year/number of hours required (to keep thing very simple) let's start with ONLY the subjects that should be offered in a complete class. Assuming four classes a semester we need 32 classes. That will include several like Grading Beginning, Middle, Advanced. Also, classes in history will be important, however, they will be broken down by say England & Europe, North America, South America, Oriental, etc. They would be separate electives after the required class: History of the World. Therefore we need to post required courses in bold.
This should be Fun! What are the possible classes you can think of?
I'll start using History;
History of the World 1 - ancient/medieval.
History of the World 2 15th Century to modern.
Electives:
History of England
History of Europe
History of China
History of the English Empire.
History of North America.
another:
Coin Making 101 Ancient
Coin Making 102 Hammered
Coin Making 103 Machine made up until the 16th Century.
Coin Making 104 Machine made 16th Century to modern.
Art History
Remember nothing is set in stone, we can change anything or divide classes up differently. Fell free to post all kinds of elective courses. Hopefully, the jokers, and trolls, will resist posting: "shoelace tying 101" and such.
Furthermore, there is a slim to none possibility that eventually, with a direction provided by our ideas that are distilled into an actual curriculum, some benefactor will start a fund as was done to raise money to start the ANA's Authentication Service.
Merry Christmas!
Comments
Numismatic knowledge is best absorbed and not force fed.
I should have expected much more than this nonsense. Fortunately, through private schools and college, I never considered any of my classes to be "forced." That included a few taught by "twits" with Doctorate Degrees.
Unfortunately, our education system has been highjacked and is quickly evolving into ruin. Perhaps you are a result of this degradation with a much different experience. I'm sorry about that.
I'm hoping that the OP has 100 million dollars to devote to this project.
At my Alma Mater, the College of Commerce and Business Administration was recently renamed for a 100 million dollar gift. I'm not certain that the giver had any prior connection to the school. No new programs were immediately instituted.
The OP has suggested a 100% FREE (thanks to this PCGS forum) way all of us can have a huge impact on the future.
As I posted, this thread will either die or become a reality. I will continue to offer suggestions to give it a chance to continue if folks show interest. If it gets too big, the problem will come trying to edit it to get it accepted by a large majority - I see a future Poll if it gets to that stage.
Metallurgy of Coinage metals
Chemistry 101 - Basic Chemistry
Chemistry 102 Environmental Chemistry
Maybe a semester in China learning how to make (and detect) counterfeits.
Fundamentals of Aqueous Corrosion (er, toning)? I took it in college and found useful tidbits of information that were applicable to coin collecting.
Languages too...
Greek or Latin (or both)
Chinese or Japanese (or both)
Russian, Sanskrit
Pick one/two
Add Far and Near East history (not just China) as one of the focal electives
And something to allow communication of all that education
Digital photography with focus (hah!) on macro/small coin details on up to the smaller Yap stones perhaps
Website design basics
Writing/composition/grammar
Basic business management course
History of Money: From Shells to Bitcoin
At some point it will include human made coins like knife money and stone wheel money:
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/02/15/131934618/the-island-of-stone-money
Use and Misuse of Social Media - Champs, Chimps and Chumps in Numismatics.
This thread will be about as usefully illuminative as "Investing Tips I Heard on the Radio"
Ethics 101
I'm not sure I understand the objective. Are you looking for input to design a curriculum? Or an informal study group on the forum? Either way it's not a bad idea. I think the main problem would be that so many people around here already know everything that there is to know. At least in their own minds. Where would you find students with the curiosity and depth of thought to acknowledge that there's always something new to learn?
I love coins but I could never imagine anything more painful.
Except maybe a BS in stamps.
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We should consider what the goals are. A degree could focus on history or economics or art or manufacture. You are not going to be able to construct a degree that does justice to all of them. A degree could just be focused on the skills needed to be a dealer/ collector: grading, market forces, collecting psychology, etc. In that case, a focus on, for example, U.S. coins might dominate the curriculum without the need for much world history, foreign languages or art theory.
Since this is an interesting exercise, I think i'll lay out some curricula later.
[I'm sure you're all waiting with bated breath. ]
Agreed.
That is a problem all colleges face. Students are interested in the majority of their courses.
I would also suggest that if you really are trying to design a degree that could be accredited, you need to set aside roughly 20% of your courses for gen ed courses. You would need 2 or 3 writing courses, for example.
Well here are some hypothetical courses that would explain many of our threads:
ECON 101 - Microeconomics
ECON 102 - Macroeconomics
PSYC 101 - Intro Psychology
PSYC applied seminar: Negotiation, deception, and manipulation
PSYC applied seminar: Addiction, speculation, bravado, and neuroses
PSYC applied seminar: Overcoming and understanding group think
PSYC/COMM seminar: Marketing, plastic, and the advent of fourth party grading
COMM seminar - Commercial Law for Undergrads (watered down torts, contracts, and property law)
COMM seminar - Hook and Crook 101
Any history class touching upon economics or history of a period.
+1 There would need to be tracks or areas of specialization: History, Art, Economics, Coin Law, Anthropology, Coin Psychology, Marketing/Business, etc.
Very punny!
Gov't assay offices and Branch Mints...
bob
Ebay - Red Flags
Ebay - seller/buyer protections
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
EBay: A monopolistic blight to coin sellers or God's gift to numismatics?
A well rounded knowledge of mustard 😈
.... and mustard stain removal.
Color me skeptical, but what exactly will this degree allow someone to do that anyone else can’t do already?
The subject matter is worthy but the formality and expense of a degree seem superfluous.
Perhaps a constructive thought - an internship with a coin dealer wouldn’t necessarily be any more valuable than working with a museum curator, mint facility, publisher, or grading service.
Intro to metallurgy
Intro and advanced grading
Counterfeit detection
I would like to see the history classes emphasize numismatics, such as hard times tokens/panic of 1837, westward expansion/pioneer gold, Roman and Greek history using coins (you get the idea)
Thanks organic chemistry!
Exactly. It would be unlikely to pay well except for an elite few.
Which are Required and which are electives? For example. Courses in the law are not required for a BS degree. Either is Photography (I like that as an elective class). Psyc classes are electives UNLESS we all think a basic psychology class is necessary. I don't. We are not training coin dealers so the business class is an elective. Basic English and Basic Math would be necessary to graduate from college with a BS.
Don't forget to put the absolutely required classes in bold
it will make editing easier.
@BryceM said: "Perhaps a constructive thought - an internship with a coin dealer wouldn’t necessarily be any more valuable than working with a museum curator, mint facility, publisher, or grading service"
I disagree 100%. Colleges have co-op programs in many fields. We'll agree that many here would like to spend one month at PCGS, one month at the Mint, and one month at CAC. I think one month at Heritage (coin dealer/auction house) would be very beneficial.
Thank me very much for the endorsements.
PS I think the quality of ideas posted is evidence that some members are willing to go along and help with this thread.
The Art & Science of Appraisal from Dreck to Treasures
With all due respect....what do the vast majority of university degrees conferred on students today allow them to do that anyone else can't do already?
Perhaps you're looking at this from the perspective of your proffesion. But, with the exception of medicine, engineering, etc., a dedicated autodidact can learn anything and it cheaper than university tuition. Doesn't cost a thing except time. I would like this to move foward. I think it will.
What high school senior would want a degree in numismatics? In 4 years they will have a huge amount of debt and a degree in coin collecting... they could skip the degree and lose just as much money on coins without the hassle! Lol
Joking aside - accounting, digital photography, business law, economics, entrepreneurship, technology course focused on excel.... a lot of this just sounds like a business degree plus a couple coin-oriented history classes and a throw in something about how to avoid getting scammed.
Instagram
Be sure to add course: Introduction to coin dealing 101, the art of scamming your clientele both buying and selling.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
I agree. An apprenticeship is cheaper and more focused. It does not come with a degree (piece of paper).
IMO, except for a few professions, today's college education is a complete waste of time and money.
Again, everyone is posting all the stuff completely unrelated to my request. It was a simple request. Unfortunately, I have discovered that there is NOTHING SIMPLE when a group of people try to communicate. That's a problem that is only worse the more intelligent folks in the group are.
Now it would be to move forward with my request. As I posted this thread will either die or produce something useful.
Yes, that's a great elective.
Some courses could be:
Minting processes past and present also equipment used
Uncirculated coin grading
Circulated coin grading
Counterfeit detection
Gold coin grading
Ancient coin analysis and identification
Minting errors
Advanced grading
Varieties defined and explored; doubled dies, RPM, OMM, enhanced/re engraved
Die stages and manufacturing; die damage (clash, EDS, MDS, LDS, mules)
Advanced variety analysis and attribution
History of US coinage
History or world coinage
History of numismatics
High profile collections and collectors
Microscopes, loupes, and magnification
Professor Rocco’s guide to variety hunting
Marketing modern internet and social media, show circuit
Business
Business analysis (brick and mortar, inventory, overhead fees, etc)
Financial
Basic psychology
Basic coin photography
Ethics
Economics
Basic chemistry
Basic metallurgy
History of money
Basic etiquette
Cultural studies
Computer based accounting and paper accounting
Social networking
Basic research techniques
Distribution principles
Personal and business tax guidance
How to protect against fraud, safe business practices, self defense
Home Economics; laundry stain removal, packing a lunch for shows, proper lifting techniques, coin storage, transportation planning and maintenance, Advanced mustard removal.
There is the framework for your degree.
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Well, it is Christmas and I have a headache....... but I’ve read this three times and still have no idea what you’re saying here.
A month at the mint? Absolutely. A month at PCGS? Sure. A month at Heritage? Not sure this would be of value but OK. A month at cac? That would be a complete waste of time. Not even if you paid me for it.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
I'm envisioning this as more of a US-Based degree, highly focusing on US coinage, with an elective path of a world coin area of interest. I think there is enough coin-related courses you can put in there to not even have room for history and languages, etc - in my pretend world, those are rolled into the courses, not on their own. I think 4 years to be an expert at all coins is a bit of a stretch, so structured this imaginary course as:
YEAR 1 - FRESHMAN
Fall Semester
1) History of the US Mint 101
- Look at the people, policies, events, locations, other duties beyond coins
2) United States Coinage 101
- A look at Colonial coinage, up through today's issues including frequently seen non-US issues used in commerce in the early days
3) Coin Manufacturing 101
- Processes, machinery, metallurgy
4) Coin Grading 101
- History of coin grading from descriptors to Sheldon Scale, including history of TPGs, details grading, etc
5) World Coinage 101
- High Level overview of all countries for students to pick a track that interests them in years 2-4
Spring Semester
1) History of the US Mint 102
2) United States Coinage 102
3) Coin Manufacturing 102
4) Coin Grading 102
5) World Coinge 102
YEAR 2 - SOPHOMORE
Fall Semester
1) US Copper Coinage 201
- In depth of 1/2 Cent, Cent, 2-Cent
2) US Minor Coins 201
- In depth of 3-Cent, 5-Cent, 10-Cent
3) US Major Silver Coins 201
- In depth of 25-Cent, 50-Cent, Dollar
A) Ancient Coinage 201
A) Coins of Europe 201
A) Coins of North and South America (excluding US) 201
A) Coinage of the Orient 201
Spring Semester
1) US Copper Coinage 202
2) US Minor Coins 202
3) US Major Silver Coins 202
A) Ancient Coinage 202
A) Coins of Europe 202
A) Coins of North and South America (excluding US) 202
A) Coinage of the Orient 202
Year 3 - JUNIOR
Fall Semester
1) Errors and Varieties 301
- Deep dive into errors, major varities, post mint damage
2) Civil War Tokens 301
- CWT, Store Cards, Tokens of the era
3) Gold Coins 301
- All denominations of Gold Coins
*) Internship - US Mint, Private Minting, TPG
A) Ancient Coinage 301
A) Coins of Europe 301
A) Coins of North and South America (excluding US) 301
A) Coinage of the Orient 301
Spring Semester
1) Errors and Varieties 302
2) So-Called Dollars 301
3) Gold Coins 302
*) Internship - US Mint, Private Minting, TPG
A) Ancient Coinage 302
A) Coins of Europe 302
A) Coins of North and South America (excluding US) 302
A) Coinage of the Orient 302
Year 4 - SENIOR
Fall Semester
1) History of Collecting 401
- Look at notable collectors, collections, auctioneers, authors, publications, supplies through the years
2) Counterfeit Detection 401
- Deep dive into detecting counterfeits, from early crude to modern reproductions
3) Advanced Coin Grading 401
A) Ancient Coinage 401
A) Coins of Europe 401
A) Coins of North and South America (excluding US) 401
A) Coinage of the Orient 401
Spring Semester
1) Conservation and Restoration 401
2) Counterfeit Detection 402
3) Advanced Coin Grading 402
A) Ancient Coinage 402
A) Coins of Europe 402
A) Coins of North and South America (excluding US) 402
A) Coinage of the Orient 402
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
@blitzdude said: "A month at the mint? Absolutely. A month at PCGS? Sure. A month at Heritage? Not sure this would be of value but OK. A month at cac? That would be a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME...."
Serious question. If spending time in a PCGS grading room and hanging out with the guys at lunch is OK, why wouldn't the same hold true in a more personalized setting with professional graders like at CAC?
Actually, IMO starting out at CAC and then going to PCGS would be a better idea. At CAC you get to see coins ALREADY GRADED by professionals. There is no GUESS AN APPROPRIATE GRADE for a raw coin that goes on at all the TPGS. You would get to see the difference between a 63 and a 63!
Additionally, CAC would be an excellent training school for folks wanting to become a professional grader. Pay for ANA grading classes. After passing the advance course (I believe still taught by a CAC grader) and being vetted, you pay tuition to JA for a one-year internship. I'll bet 99% of those students would be hired by a major TPGS.
Do you still think a month at CAC is a waste of time?
What's the goal of attaining such a hypothetical degree? The requirements to become a dealer are vastly different than those to become a museum curator, researcher, or grader. Each of those could be specializations of their own with little in common with the others. Would the goal be "to prepare the student for advanced studies in numismatics" (a euphemism crafted by university sales departments for a degree with little value despite the great cost)?
Stuff like grading and counterfeit detection would be a couple lab courses followed by internships, either at grading services, dealers, auction houses, or museums.
The minting process and development thereof also would be a couple lab courses, but do you also want to have prerequisite engineering, metallurgy, and materials science courses to go along with this, or just bundle basics of all that into one survey course? The dealer aspirant won't be interested, either way.
History of world mints and their operation would be one course with lots of reading. Prerequisites for this might be macro- and microeconomics as well as study of modern and historic monetary systems -- probably 5 courses right there that graders will sleep through.
Courses in running a business, international business, law as applied to businesses, commodities markets, would likely only be of interest to dealers.
Art classes on the history of medallic art (1 class), sculpture (another class), both of which would have prerequisites, seem to make sense for some pursuits, not others.
Maybe the best approach to this exercise would be to find people generally thought to be at the top of their games in their respective numismatic fields and ask them what they studied and practiced to get there. It would be insightful in that not only would it offer suggestions for assorted courses of study, but would also show why a degree in numismatics would be rather ill-defined.
The final bit of irony is that none of the courses would be taught by, or books would be written by, people with degrees in numismatics (unless you end up with a Kagin-related book or course).
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
To take this thread beyond the hypothetical, it might be helpful to get input from Don Kagin who holds the first, if not only, Ph.D. in Numismatics. In meeting with him at our mutual Northwestern University 45th year college reunion it was mentioned, if I recall correctly, that as an undergraduate he double majored in history and numismatics with himself being largely responsible for establishing the numismatic curriculum.
You do not need to be an authenticator, grader, dealer, or collector to be a NUMISMATIST. However, I believe history, chemistry, grading and authentication, should be in the core curriculum. While a language class would be a good core, classes in business, psychology, law, etc could be electives.
It has been suggested to reach a more focused discussion that I start at the end result and work backwards. So let's try.
Doty defined Numismatics as
the study,
science,
and collecting of coins, medals, paper money, tokens, and related objects.
So what CORE classes would relate to the study, science, and collecting part of numismatics. Business practices is not one of them! However, if a numismatist wants to be a coin dealer, it becomes a necessary elective. A class on Library science or research techniques (the study part) is a core requirement. See the difference between a core subject and everything else - the electives?
Modern mint practices. How coins are minted, mint errors, different finishes, die designing etc.
I wouldn’t get too carried away in special interest areas in a “bs”. Some of the ideas here are more masters doctorate level and certainly elective.
I’d imagine here, if serious, first figure out what your goal at the end of this education would be. To design coins, to mint coins, to sell coins, to buy coins, history of coins, to collect coins, etc.
Perhaps consider an associate level first
Question: What would the employment potential look like for someone who got a BA (yes based on what I see people writing this would be a bachelor of arts) in Numismatics? (Edit to add: College is an investment.) It basically looks like a humanities major with maybe one or 2 classes where they do high school level mathematics in economics or two chemistry classes which are probably freshmen chemistry level difficulty but the most quantitative classes in the entire program.
Especially if students would take out loans for this degree, where will they work after graduation to start paying them off? Their options look to be i) Open their own coin store, ii) Work at a grading company, iii) Work at an auction house, iv) Work at a numismatic institution or museum, v) Work at the mint, or vi) Work at starbucks.
Are these high paying jobs? Does PCGS/NGC/CAC have a need for more graders? I've never seen them post a want-ad but I've never looked that hard. Is HA or Stacks trying to hire more of this type of person? How many numismatists do these companies and institutions need? Do they need more than they have? I don't get the impression that places are understaffed, but I could be wrong.
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I probably disagree but you neglected to be specific. This is a BS in Numismatics. The goal is to be one. So, while Coin Design is a great idea for a core class, anything beyond basic buying and selling coins 101,may only be suitable as electives. When we put something together at the end, Most electives will be taken in Junior or Senior or graduate school year when our future numismatist decides his/her career path and needs more specialized courses.
I like the question posed. My five cents worth (YTBD means Yet To Be Designed):
If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.
Tommy
Way too many history classes in the above post and not one photography class.