PCGS Reliability of Ancient Coins

1987WheatCent

Hi All,

While I know that ancient coins generally obtain letter grades, i was wondering if PGCS grading has been done on these types of coins in order to obtain a PCGS rating of 64+. I am looking into collecting ancients with ratings of this level of grade or above, along with potentially rainbow-toned ancients as well. Especially those with a high bullion value would be excellent.

I know 64+ PCGS ratings are hard to come by for ancients due to large amounts of denticles, but any direction for someone looking to matriculate into this genre of numismatic collection would be excellent.

Thanks in advance!

Oldhoopster

Ancient coins do not lend themselves to modern grading standards. Strike, centering, and planchet quality vary greatly making it difficult to develop standardized grades in the same manner as coins like Morgan Dollars

1987WheatCent

@Oldhoopster - Have you come across any good rainbow-toned ancient coins in your numismatic experience?

Oldhoopster

IMO, you can’t think about ancients like you do US issues, especially "good rainbow toned" coins. Metallurgy, dies, minting techniques, preservation, etc, all add huge levels of variability. For example, many (most?) of the coins have spent time in the ground. For this reason, cleaning/conservation is almost a requirement. In addition, third party grading does not have the acceptance among advanced collectors like it does for US Coins.

If you’re just looking to purchase a few pieces for their historical significance, I would recommend finding a reputable dealer like (but not limited too) CNG, Harlan Berk, or dealers on V Coins. I believe there are some good dealers who are members here, but there is more ancient activity on other forums. If you’re looking to collect long term, then you really should plan to spend some time learning. I don’t play in the high end ancient sandbox, so I can’t provide better recommendations.

Hopefully other, more experienced members can jump in

1987WheatCent

Thanks, @Oldhoopster ! I was also looking into beginning a collection of ancient coins with prevalent denticles. This rare combination of features on old coins would in my opinion make for a very unique collection. Thoughts?

jerseycat101

@1987WheatCent said:
Thanks, @Oldhoopster ! I was also looking into beginning a collection of ancient coins with prevalent denticles. This rare combination of features on old coins would in my opinion make for a very unique collection. Thoughts?

I find that a denticle-based approach to collecting is short-sighted, proverbially speaking. I'd caution you to instead focus on ancients with nice patina that haven't been harshly cleaned or obviously unearthed. As a new collector, I would propose that you only collect coins certified by PCGS or NGC until you develop a good enough eye.

KOYNGUY

PCGS does not currently certify ancients. ANACS since 1999 and NGC since c. 2005 do. I have been certifying since 1984 under ANA, ANAAB, ICG and now ANACS. If you are looking for ancient coins in the lofty grades above MS-64 you can usually only find them in gold. Gold coins can retain mint freshness over thousands of years in pottery and dry conditions. All ancient coins come from the ground (or water) and most all other metals oxidize or react with the enviroment especially in wet and salty conditions. The few non gold coins found in pottery in dry conditions can retain their original skin. These hoard coins, if new, can be quite spectacular. Less than a tenth of one percent survive in this state. However most silver and base metal coins are cleaned with acid and lose their original surfaces. So any "rainbow" coins are created post cleaning.
Many more considerations such as style, centering, surfaces, strike, die states, go into ancient coin grading. Most grades are consolidated, or netted into the single numerical grade. This means coins of dramatically different looks can attain the same grade and same value. Think off center, weak strike mint state coins from worn dies of poor style compared to a fine style, centered, well struck from early dies being of comprable grade and/or value.
At any rate, if your taste is ms-64+ ancients, be prepared to pay through the nose for these internationally sought after coins. J.P. Martin

MrMonkeySwag96

@1987WheatCent said:
Hi All,

While I know that ancient coins generally obtain letter grades, i was wondering if PGCS grading has been done on these types of coins in order to obtain a PCGS rating of 64+. I am looking into collecting ancients with ratings of this level of grade or above, along with potentially rainbow-toned ancients as well. Especially those with a high bullion value would be excellent.

I know 64+ PCGS ratings are hard to come by for ancients due to large amounts of denticles, but any direction for someone looking to matriculate into this genre of numismatic collection would be excellent.

Thanks in advance!

I'm looking to get into ancients myself. However, I've been reading about the ancient coin hobby for over a year before I bought my first ancient coin. Ancient numismatics is a very different hobby from US numismatics. Forget everything you know about US coins. Knowledge of US coins is useless when getting into ancients. I advise you treat ancient coins and US coins as COMPLETELY DIFFERENT hobbies.

When collecting ancients, the grade isn't that important. Most ancient collectors aren't obsessed about grades unlike US coin collectors. In fact, some dealers don't bother to mention the grades of their ancient coins. Eye appeal is more important than grade when evaluating ancient coins. Collectors would pay more money for an ancient coin with great eye appeal rather than a higher grade coin. Eye appeal is judged based on strike, centering, and art style.

Unlike US coins, ancient coins were hand struck. Obviously, ancient coins often display weak strikes. Oftentimes, many of the design elements on ancient coins won't strike up. For example, a portrait on a Roman coin might be missing a nose or mouth. Ancient coins with sharp strikes are more eye appealing and are more desirable than coins with weak strikes.

Another aspect of eye appeal is centering. Because ancient coins are hand struck, most were struck off center. It is difficult to find an ancient coin with perfect centering. Ancient coins that were struck off center are less desirable than coins with perfect centering. As I said earlier, ancient numismatics is different from US numismatics. A Morgan dollar that is struck off center is considered an "error" and worth more money. In contrast, ancient coins that are struck off center aren't desirable. When buying ancient coins, you should try to get coins that have good centering.

The most important determinant of eye appeal is "art style." You might ask, what is art style? Art style is exactly what it sounds like, its how well a coin's design is executed on the dies. During ancient times, the dies were engraved by hand. Thus, there will be variability in the "artistic style" of the dies. Two coins of the same type can look drastically different. If the engraver did a bad job on the die, the coin designs can look cartoonish. If the engraver devoted much effort in engraving the die, the design would look realistic and beautiful. There are Roman coins the depict the emperor with realistic facial features and are highly detailed. Yet there are other Roman coins that depict emperor with a cartoonish portrait. All ancient coins will look different because they were struck with different dies with varying levels of artistry. Most collectors of ancient coins place more value on a coin's "artistic style" rather than its grade. Collectors pursue the most artistic coin, not the highest graded coin. When collecting ancient coins, you have to be an art critic.

Ancient numismatics and US numismatics have differing views on cleaned coins. Almost all ancient coins have been CLEANED. Keep in mind, ancient coins were buried in the ground. Cleaning is essential when restoring ancient coins. You shouldn't be questioning whether an ancient coin is cleaned or not. Instead, you should be focusing on how well the coin was cleaned. A person who is experienced in cleaning ancient coins can make a metal detecting find look amazing. In contrast, an amateur cleaner can easily ruin an ancient coin.

When collecting any coins, you should buy the book before the coin. Collecting ancients requires a lot of reading. There were hundreds of ancient civilizations that issued coins, hence why its important to be well read to identify coins. I advise that you buy books from David Sear. David Sear is the most well known author of ancient coin references. There are other authors that specialize in particular coin series such as Greek, Roman Republic, Roman Imperial, Roman Provincial, Byzantine, Islamic etc. Reading a lot of books will also help you in identifying counterfeits.

I don't recommend slabbed ancient coins. Slabs are meant for modern coins, not ancients. Most ancient numismatists HATE slabs. Part of the experience of collecting ancients is holding the coins in your hand. Weighing the coin and closely examining the coin's edges are essential for identifying counterfeits. Slabs prevent ancient coins from being weighed or examined. I've been collecting US coins for 8 years. All of my US coins are slabbed. So it took me a while to understand why ancient numismatists hate slabs. If you visit NGC's website, they state that they don't guarantee the authenticity of ancients. As I said earlier, grade is never that important for ancients. Having NGC certify your coins offers no real benefits. In addition, slabbed ancients tend to be overpriced.

If you want to avoid fake ancient coins, then don't buy from eBay. Ebay is a bad place to buy ancients unless you know how to spot counterfeits. Most collectors of ancients buy coins from Vcoins.com. Vcoins is an online marketplace with many dealers that have decades of experience in ancient numismatics. Another similar site is Ma-Shops. The most respected ancient coins dealer in the US is Harlan Berk. Harlan Berk sells a lot of high quality ancients. The most famous online auctioneers of ancient coins are Classical Numismatics Group (CNG) and Roman Numismatics. Heritage also sells ancients, however their coins are slabbed. Basically, you should avoid eBay to prevent encountering fakes.

You

This is the most nonsensical post I've ever seen

MrMonkeySwag96

@You said:
This is the most nonsensical post I've ever seen

Are you talking about my post? What is "nonsensical" about it?

You

@MrMonkeySwag96 said:

@You said:
This is the most nonsensical post I've ever seen

Are you talking about my post? What is "nonsensical" about it?

No, the original post in this thread

MrMonkeySwag96

@You said:

@MrMonkeySwag96 said:

@You said:
This is the most nonsensical post I've ever seen

Are you talking about my post? What is "nonsensical" about it?

No, the original post in this thread

Gotcha

winesteven

@You said:
This is the most nonsensical post I've ever seen.

While I have no interest in collecting ancient coins, I found reading the comments of the several knowledgeable people above fascinating, and I learned quite a bit. I loved this post!

Thanks to @Oldhoopster , @KOYNGUY , and @MrMonkeySwag96 .