Quarterback stat question
Tomi
Posts: 643 ✭✭✭
So in baseball there have been different eras with little changes that can make a big difference, like smaller ball parks, tighter wound balls, lowered pitcher's mound, etc. There are all time leaders in every baseball category that played 40-50 years ago but it's quite different in football. As far as quarterbacks go there is a huge gap between the numbers put up by old school QB's vs. the modern QB's. Modern QB's are so far ahead statistically from the other eras that's it feels like they have had 2 careers instead of 1 compared to their counterparts. What do you guys see as the reasons for such a huge gap in the QB statistics. One of my friends says that he hates that modern QB's have earpieces during games and gives a huge advantage over the old school QB's. Not sure if it matters, but what do you guys see as the biggest factors for the stat difference. Hasn't the game been played the same way all this time?
Comments
There are a handful of factors:
1) There is far less defensive contact allowed now against receivers. So it's far easier for guys to catch passes since defenders can't touch them.
2) Receivers are allowed to wear super-sticky gloves and/or stick-um now. They simply can catch passes now that they physically could not previously.
3) Quarterbacks are afforded far more protection against hits now than before. So they are able to stand in and make throws where before they'd get beaten up.
4) Offensive systems have changed. Because of all the rule changes, teams simply throw more often now.
5) Training. Today's quarterbacks are better prepared and better trained, from a younger age, than the quarterbacks of yesteryear.
I'm no expert, but it seems like the passing game to me. Terry Bradshaw said recently that when he played, they ran the ball most of the time. You've got to send packages via air mail in today's game a lot more to keep up.
A multitude of rules changes favoring QB and WR protection and encouraging the passing game/higher scores.
With all these factors, do you see the modern QB as "better" than their counterpart or "just as good" but with more help.
The average quarterback today is a lot better than the average quarterback of yesteryear. They are far more accurate and better trained.
But...
Quarterbacks of today get a lot of help.
Another factor I forgot to mention:
6) The intentional grounding rule. It's now legal to throw the ball away to avoid a sack. This is a major change from the previous rule and significantly reduces the risk associated with passing.
Pretty much 100% accurate across the board. Although I’m not all that sure about the sticky gloves, they might help but not as much as you would think like Stick Em in the 70’s
All it looks like to me is haters trying to find anything to take away from Brady being the GOAT.
<<< Receivers are allowed to wear super-sticky gloves and/or stick-um now. >>>
Not accurate. Stick-um has been banned from the NFL for a long time.
Sticky gloves are allowed just as long as the gloves don't leave any residue on the football.
I don't think domed stadiums were mentioned. Perfect indoor weather has to help the passing game.
Also artificial turf has to help the passing game.
Certainly it's a "passing league" now although of course the running game is still important. Running backs coming out of the backfield and catching the football is fairly common today. Whereby 40-50 years ago it was sort of unusual, although some like Walter Payton were pretty good at it.
Yes for sure, the rule changes have helped quarterbacks. Certainly wasn't an accident. Most fans prefer say a 40-35 game over a 3-0 game. So the NFL which is a business providing entertainment, gives the fans what they want.
Correct on the stick-um - I remembered reading the ban had been overturned. I was incorrect.
The rest of your reasons were excellent. 👍
im surprised Lester Hayes didnt have 5000 interceptions in his career. all the ball would have to do is touch him somewhere.......anywhere......and it would get stuck
They can try all they want but it is what it is, even though I’m adamant that Brady is the best ever I admit that for at least half his career the game has changed in his favor, but it’s changed in all his colleagues favor as well including the defensive players who are way faster, stronger ect.. than years ago so it’s all irrelevant in my opinion.
with all the rules changes it isn't reasonable to compare the NFL of today with the NFL of yesteryear, and that is most drastically seen at the QB position. I understand and accept the reasons for many rule changes but they distort any attempt at comparing players from different eras.
many younger fans aren't aware of some things which used to be penalties, two that I see as really important:
1). Face Guarding --- this was called on a defensive back who had his back to the QB while covering a receiver, usually well downfield. if he wasn't looking back at the ball and he used his arms in the air to try to block the incoming football it would be called. eliminating this penalty changed how DB's cover and ushered in the back-shoulder pass play. today, defenders often never look back, they watch the receiver and react.
2). Helping/Pushing the ball carrier --- it used to be a penalty to assist the ball-carrier by "pushing the pile" which is common today. it might not seem like much, put pay attention to the next game you watch and you'll be surprised, there are plays designed to take advantage of this technique.
the protections afforded the QB have really swung too far to one side. defenders have only a limited area of contact on the QB's body and any unintended contact in the protected areas is penalized. the QB is also allowed to "throw the ball away" to a high degree today if he can't find an open receiver to throw to. these changes can make rushing a QB an exercise in futility.
the end result of everything is that the QB is so vital today that a season can be wrecked if the starter gets injured, the fall-off from 1-2 is generally quite large. an injury, even one that isn't season ending, can render even the best QB's and the best Teams ineffective. there is something fundamentally wrong with the game of Football when a Team can function with all other positions being absent the starters --- except --- for the QB. the records of all the best Teams are almost entirely dependent on the play of one person. the rules have been changed over the years to ensure the safety of that person.
it makes for more exciting play overall but I don't think it's a good thing.
They still call Face Guarding - you have to be playing the ball. Pushing the pile that's just utter BS. And Paul brought up a fact that I was going to if someone didn't. And that is the fact that the DB's are bigger, stronger & faster now than back then. The modern QB's are just better than QB's from the past. There are some that could play today like Grayham(sp) and Unitus(sp), but generally speaking QB's are just better now. Long passes long ago use to be rainbows....then came along Farve and Elway who could throw across their body downfield like a rope.
6) Elimination of the "head slap" by defensive lineman.
7) O lineman no longer have to be in "3 point" stance.
8) O lineman allowed to "hold" defensive player as long as he keeps his hands/arms inside the defenders arms.
9) Quarterbacks allowed to ground the ball when outside the "tackle box".
10) QB's allowed to "slide" when they run past the line of scrimmage.
Can't hit the QB low, high or too hard, can't hit him late and can't even land on him while tackling him if he has the ball, unless you do it gently.
all of what joe posted in spades!!!
then came along Farve and Elway who could throw across their body downfield like a rope
trust me, there were enough guys who could do that in the 60's-70's-80's if you paid attention. to this day I have never seen a QB who could throw the ball like Dan Fouts, none who could throw the low-rope like Terry Bradshaw and nobody, I mean nobody, who threw or throws a prettier pass than Warren Moon. sadly for Moon, he came up in an era when the NFL still was unwilling to believe that a Black Man could be a successful starting QB. the result was a wasted six-years in the CFL where he convinced them, ultimately having an HOF career.
Warren Moon is responsible for breaking ground and making it possible for guys like Randall Cunningham to have a chance at the elite QB position. today, others like Patrick Mahomes and Lamar Jackson have carried that opportunity forward.
This is hog wash and you know it. And most of your other points are not accurate.
And @keets all of the QB's you listed are considered by most to be modern QB's. And I saw Fout's play a lot. He did not throw ropes. His main weapon was throwing the long ball, which he was very good at.
You people with all these supposed rule changes that help the QB's make me laugh. Just a bunch of incorrect hog wash to try and make your incorrect point that doesn't even exist.
Doug Williams won a Super Bowl well before Moon was in the league
Regarding tabe's list- its mainly one reason, number 4 on his list. Teams simply throw the ball more.
Most of the other things are irrelevant and don't factor in the equation.
How many games that you watched 20-30 years ago did the announcer's say, the ........... are going to
establish the run first. They said that EVERY GAME about every single team.
QB's in the fifties and sixties had the arm strength and talent to throw for 300-400 yards every game
just not the opportunity when you only pass maybe 15-20 times at most for the game.
I just watched footage from an old game where Tom Harmon chucked one down the field, it
looked like a damn fighter jet whizzing by.
Don't be fooled, today's QB's by and large may have better arm strength than the average QB
of yesteryear, but the elite QB back then if playing today would still be elite.
In the course of every human endeavor since the dawn of time the risk of human error has always been a factor. Including but not limited to field goals, 4th down attempts, or multiple paragraph ramblings on a sports forum authored by someone who shall remain anonymous.
I agree with most of this. And will only add this. The difference between then and now is that the players now are bigger, stronger and faster. That is a fact and not a put down on the players from back then.
I’m not sure how anyone can’t agree that there are multiple reasons as stated by JoeBanzai and Tabe, those are absolutely good reasons and anyone that don’t think they help obviously doesn’t understand the modern NFL game, yes they throw more that is not disputable but it’s not the only reason. NFL offenses are like video games now. It don’t take away from the greatness of players like Brady, Rodgers Mahomes ect they would be great in any era if they could survive the brutality without injury and that is something that is a crap shoot. You can’t ever say who will or will not get injured
Yes bigger stronger and faster defensive players too. That’s why I question how dominant Jim Brown would be in today’s game
Doug Williams won a Super Bowl well before Moon was in the league
hey perk, do you remember the Doug Williams "Sports Illustrated" cover?? he had a reputation of throwing rockets, the know on him was that he had no touch. the cover had him throwing to a receiver who had no hands, just bloody stumps at the wrist.
--- Dimeman, you may be the most ignorant member at this forum, to not understand everything about the rules we have posted. get a copy of the rues from the 60-70 era and one from today, read and understand. you clearly have no memory or else never watched the NFL back then oh, BTW, the guys I mentioned played in the 70's unless you can't remember that, too.
please don't question Mr. Jim Brown. he was dominant and defenses were designed to try to stop him. the stats tell the tale that is hard to believe --- in his 10 year career he averaged about 104 yards/game and never, that's NEVER missed a down due to injury in his entire career.
I said it's mainly one reason, a lot more pass plays in today's game. When was the last time you heard an
announcer say any team wants to establish the running game. I'm sure its said sometimes today, but 30-40
years ago they said it every game.
Yes, I think some of the other reasons mentioned are a factor, but not near as big a factor as tabe's #4 reason.
In the course of every human endeavor since the dawn of time the risk of human error has always been a factor. Including but not limited to field goals, 4th down attempts, or multiple paragraph ramblings on a sports forum authored by someone who shall remain anonymous.
keets, I know exactly when they played. I watched them every week. You are the one showing your ignorance with all this nonsense about rule changes and QB's. Wake up and smell the coffee man.
1) is the main factor, and the one that primarily makes true the statement that today's QBs are simply playing a different game than the old-time QBs. You can't throw to a receiver 50 yards downfield if your receivers can't get 50 yards downfield, or it takes them 15 seconds to get there. And with defenders draped over the receivers it was much more likely that a pass would get intercepted in the old days than it is today. That is why....
4) teams throw so much more today.
In decreasing order, 3), 5) and 2) are also factors, but they're minor compared to 1)/4) (which is really just one factor).
Let me be clear again on Jim Brown, I think he was one of the best and I absolutely think he would be very good in today’s game, I’ve never questioned that all I’m saying is the defensive players he would face now would be a lot tougher and he might not be AS dominant as he was like smashing over lineman and linebackers, I mean some of these LB’ers and Safety’s are bigger than some of the lineman he faced and much bigger than some of the 190 pound LB’s he brushed aside
Totally agree.
but Dallas, listen to Dimeman, the rule changes have nothing to do with it. as a matter of fact, most of the rule changes we've mentioned aren't true. just ask Jon.
supposed rule changes that help the QB's make me laugh. Just a bunch of incorrect hog wash to try and make your incorrect point that doesn't even exist
I respect Dimeman's opinions, but when he said "supposed rule changes" to refer to actual rule changes I stopped trying to make sense of that particular post. Dimeman - if what you meant was "actual rule changes that supposedly helped the QB", then you should say that and make that argument.
The rule changes that had the greatest effect happened in the mid/late 70's, and the rushing/passing balance immediately changed and has stayed more or less the same ever since. Or at least until very recently when they criminalized unkind looks in the general direction of the QB. Rushing yards per game dropped from 134 prior to 1980 to 114 since then. Passing yards per game increased from 164 prior to 1980 to 207 from 1980 through 2015, and have been about 240 since then.
Yes, and these cannon armed QB's of today dink and dunk their way down the field as opposed to those weak a$$ed guys in the past who actually threw the ball down the field.
Giving the new guys a higher completion% and lower INT% and an inflated QB rating.
The new guys are SOOOOO much better.
tell Len Dawson he had a weak arm. tell Jim Plunkett he had a weak arm. tell Johnny Unitas and Earl Morral that they had weak arms. tell Bart Starr he had a weak arm. tell slingin' Sammy Baugh he had a weak arm. tell Otto Graham he had a weak arm. tell Frank Ryan he had a weak arm. hell, tell George Blanda he had a weak arm and he might kick you in the kiester with his weak leg!! I saw weak armed Dan Fouts throw the ball in person at field level --- 20-40 yard bullets about 10 feet off the ground. he probably had to soak that weak arm after the game, not!!!
Dallas, you know you're making an "ERA" comparison, so expect Dimeboy to be all over you like a cheap suit.
--- note to Jon: ERA doesn't stand for Equal Rights Amendment.
Namath might have had a better arm than anyone, not so good knees though. :-(
Having a strong arm is half the battle though, accuracy and reading defenses when stuff starts going sideways is another thing. The game is so much faster now it’s not even fair to compare today’s elite QB’s to the ones from the 70’s
Very true, but I think all of us realize that there were great QB's from all era's. It's just that overall they are better now. The game is faster because the players are bigger, stronger and faster. The DB's cover better now than then. And look at that clip where Jim Brown is getting more yards dragging linebackers on each leg like they were 3rd graders! That would not happen today. His yards after contact would go down considerably. He would still be a great back, but the LB's today could and would stop him far better than the LB's of yesteryear.
What your saying is everything that I try to make points about and agree to a point except that I do think it’s unfair to say the QB’s of yesteryear were not as good only because the talent was there but all the training and benefits that modern day QB’s have they didn’t. If Otto Graham was born in 1980 and grew up the way these modern day QB’s did then I absolutely believe that he would still be a HOF’er if things lined up well enough. But the bottom line in stat comparisons yea Troy Aikman has better stats but I won’t say he should be ranked higher than Graham. It’s impossible to really break it down in a fair way. I think players should be judged by decade
I agree Paul. Plus I think there are players from each era that could play in other era's. There is no doubt in my mind that Brady could have played in any era and done very well. I also think QB's like Roger S. could play today.
I think Troy Aikman was a great QB. I think it is unfair to penalize him because he was on a great team. They were run first so his stats aren't as good as others like Dan Fouts who play the air Corriel(sp) game. These are not rule changes......just differences in the different ways team.
And the bottom bottom line is ........ there is no arguement possible to keep Brady from being the GOAT. And I'm not a Pat's fan. Just an honest football fan and seeing Brady for what he is. And yes, his trips to the Super Bowl and winning 6 times should and does come into play.
one thing many, many fans don't know and take into consideration is that back-in-the-day there was an actual off-season. that was a time when players in all Sports didn't actively participate in anything having to do with that Sport, they actually worked a job. many of those jobs included farm work since the Country was more rural 60 years ago. today, these athletes are consumed with their chosen avocation, they toil at it 24/7/365 and the Team facilities are geared for that.
I absolutely disagree with the assertions that Jim Brown would be handled so much better today. he played at 6'2" and 235 lbs. which was close to the size of LB's of the era. sure, that helped him, but JB had unequaled balance and great hips which allowed him to pivot and avoid direct hits. that was his forte, not allowing tacklers to have a clear shot at him. he was also intelligent and took care of his body.
what I will say about the DB's of today is that there attempts a tackling him might not be as successful as some believe. his balance, agility and sheer power would almost certainly render many of the roll-block-tackles employed today as useless. I have seen enough footage of Jim Brown, and yes, actually saw him play in person for seven games in his last season to say that the last thing any DB or LB would want is to try to tackle him in the open field. that is a losing proposition for the defender.
one final thought on Jim Brown: when he was playing he was always the Best Athlete on the field at any given time. if he was playing today that would still be true.
Oh to have a hero again 😂😂😂
he is probably a boyhood hero who has moved past that now to Legend status.
you might recall my Art Modell rant, about how he was the worst owner to my mind, hands down. Modell was why Jim Brown abandoned the City and Team, why he refused to come around and be associated with the Team, though he was continually asked.
it was only after Modell left that JB came back. now he is a regular, often seen on on the sideline or in a Box at Home Games. he also speaks to the Team, mainly during the pre-season. he's a good motivational speaker.
Here's an article with a timeline (and some analysis) of rule changes just since 1993 that have helped the passing game:
https://www.insidehook.com/article/sports/nfl-rule-changes-created-golden-era-quarterback-stats
I was almost with you on JB.....almost....but he would not dominate today like he did then.
But this last statement is TOTALLY ridiculous!! I get it like you really really like him and that is great.....but...…….no he would not be the greatest on the field today. I wouldn't even say that about him then.
The problem with this argument - not to pick on you, it's the problem with every era argument - is that you are stating as fact something that is impossible to know. Who is the "greatest on the field today"? Whoever it is, transport him back to Jim Brown's teams and replace Jim Brown with your GOTFT. Yes, the people tackling him will now be a lot smaller than the ones tackling him before he transported, but so are the people blocking in front of him. The defenders trying to tackle him also know that he is going to get the ball a lot more often than he's used to; they're keying on him now, every play, and he's going to get hit and tackled a lot more than he's used to. Can his body take all those extra hits? His physical condition won't be nearly as good as it is today, because he's not going to have the same resources, trainers, doctors, etc. His shoes and pads are are also going to be heavier, and he's going to be playing every single game on natural grass, and half of those in Cleveland, so lots of those games will be played in mud or on snow/ice. And the games he'll play south of Washington, D.C. will be few and far between, so there will be little respite from the mud and cold on the road either. And I don't know how this will affect your GOTFT, but his starting salary will be $12,000 and even if he does turn out to be as great as Brown it will only rise to $60,000 ten years later.
I am a lot more confident that if you transported Jim Brown to today - giving him a wall of 350 pound monsters to block for him, allowing him to run fewer plays carrying less weight, on turf and indoors most of the time, with year-round training and medical attention, and the motivation to earn millions - he would be even more impressive than he was in his own time than I am that a modern prima donna transported back to a time when he'd have to work a hell of a lot harder for 1% of the money would survive for an entire season.
But, I don't know. I can't know. You can't know. Because your GOTFT and Jim Brown were playing different games, and being the greatest at either game does not tell us much about how well they'd do at the other game.
When keets said GOTF I took that to mean all players not just RB's. To me this is crazy. How do you compare JB to all of the other 21 players out there!
If you're honest, you admit you can't, and you don't. I thought I was alone in acknowledging that comparing individual players one to another was a fool's errand in a team game like football; glad to hear you're onboard, too. Wait, you said Brady was the GOAT, and there wasn't even a possible way to argue otherwise. So by that you mean GOAT QB, leaving open the possibility that there were up to 21 players on his own team, each year, that were even greater than he was, right? And since you have dismissed the notion that players can't be compared accurately across eras, you are leaving open the possibility that there have been literally thousands of players at positions other than QB who may also have been greater than Brady. Got it.
No, you haven't got it. And you know it.
Nobody has said Brady is the GOAT Football player. He is the GOAT QB.