PCGS Crossing NGC Slabs

WWBillman

I posted this reply on another thread and afterward I really started thinking about it and feel it deserves its own thread. So here it is. Any comments?

All I hear is that PCGS is bias against NGC graded coins and the fact that the coin is in a NGC slab means it won't get a fair and proper grade by PCGS.

SO WHAT if PCGS is or is not bias on crossing NGC coins.

Everyone wants to blame the low percentage of NGC crossovers on the NGC holder implying if it was not slabed by NGC it would grade the same at PCGS. IF PCGS is bias and you feel the only reason a coin won't cross is because it is in an NGC holder and you are confident it is properly graded by NGC, crack it out and submit it raw. Everyone says they buy the coin not the slab. If that is the case then let the coin get graded on its own merit. If the coin comes back with the same grade that was given it by NGC or better you win. If it comes back with a lower grade, you can't exactly blame it on their bias against NGC anymore now can you? Then who or what are you going to blame?

Only if PCGS starts asking the the coin owner what grade they want and giving it to them will everyone be happy but then they might as well change their name to Acugrade 2.

Bill

TomB

This is the essence of a response that I wrote in another thread concerning the PCGS re-grade option and I have pasted it here with the appropriate editing. I've looked through thousands of NGC and PCGS slabbed coins and have submitted relatively few for cross-over, therefore, in my view I have been very picky and precise in my personal "pre-screening". Also, please keep in mind that what I normally buy, sell and am comfortable with is not what all others buy, sell or are comfortable with. Keeping that caveat in the forefront helps to let those of a disparate collecting bent understand my thinking in the process. I keep the coins in the NGC holders for two reasons. The first is that I submit coins that are already MS66 or so and I don't want to potentially damage the coin during the cracking process. That may seem trivial to most or some of you, however, the last thing I want to do is slip while removing a semi-key date MS66 silver Washington that I think is high end and impart a nasty nick on Washington's cheek. The second reason has more to do with how I perceive PCGS's consistency or paranoia/diligence vis a vis problem free, vividly toned coinage and deliberately, artificially toned coinage. I try to buy, sell and collect superbly toned coinage and we all hear horror stories of how PCGS or other third-party services bag coins that someone has personally had since it left the Mint, has personally taken from an original roll, has seen the coin taken from an original Mint Set, etc...In dealing with coins of such character I don't want to take the coin out of the slab and then have PCGS decide that their current view on such toning precludes slabbing of the coin in a PCGS holder. That is a large downside even when I believe the coin is completely and totally problem-free. So, in the conditions that I choose to use the cross-over option the ability to keep the coin in the NGC holder is an important element in my decision making process. Again, depending on what people know, collect and like will be different and their experiences might make my reasons superfluous in their niche.

CarlWohlforth

I thought I was the only one worried about damaging a coin if I crack it out! I'm sure there is little risk but if I have the opportunity to drop a coin or something like that I will. Slabs protect the coin from me!!

For the coins I am most familiar with (modern proofs) I see no evidence of bias. My conclusion is the grading standard used by each company is slightly different. Very close, but slightly different.

Naturally if I think a coin should cross and it doesn't I look for a reason. Of course it must be bias, it can't be my grading abilities Just kidding, I know I have tons more to learn about grading.

I really think PCGS should say what they would have graded the coin if it Did Not Cross. After all we are paying for a grading, we should know the grade. Knowing what PCGS would grade the coin would also help because it would help in double checking the process, some of the few mistakes could be caught this way. I recently had one where they ignored the minimum grade I wrote down. A simple mistake, but it sure caused me confusion until I realized they must have made a mistake. PCGS is fixing it for free.

BowAxe

I have not submitted all that many coins to PCGS for crossover--perhaps 30 or so, about equally divided between NGC and ANACS. I have yet to have a single coin cross over from either service, so if PCGS is biased against the holder, their bias appears to be the same toward ANACS as toward NGC, based upon my statistically insignificant experience.

As my experience has led me to conclude that submitting coins for crossover is tantamount to throwing money away, I am much more likely to crack out a coin. I don't know how others go about it, but I use a band saw to cut through all four edges of the slab, then while holding the two sides together like a sandwich I brush off the plastic "sawdust", remove one side and lift out the flexible insert that holds the coin (this done over a soft cloth lest I fumble and drop the whole thing), then gently bend the insert so that the coin drops out onto a padded surface. I have had no mishaps (knock on wood!) over the course of a couple hundred crackouts--I am much more likely to drop a coin while trying to put it into a flip.

STOCKFORD

I THINK THEY ARE BIAS. I HAVE SENT IN TEN NGC COINS NONE CROSS
THEN SENT IN THE SAME TEN AS CRACK OUTS FOUR MONTHS LATER
2 CAME BACK THE SAME GRADE
THE OTHER EIGHT ONE GRADE LOWER

ScarsdaleCoin

you can ask pcgs for the grade, I have gotten that information many times...

WWBillman

STOCKFORD,

I don't understand your post.

If you sent 10 NGC slabs for cross over and none crossed, then 4 months later you cracked out the same 10 coins and resubmitted them and 8 graded lower than the previous NGC assigned grade how does that prove bias? Only 2 of the 10 crack outs graded the same. You could crack out 10 PCGS slabs and resubmit them and odds are atleast 2 of the 10 would grade different.

Please explain.

STOCKFORD

I WAS JUST STATING THAT PCGS LET ZERO NGC CROSS WHEN IN ACTUALLY TWO DID MEET THE SAME FOR PCGS. WHY DID THEY NOT CROSS AT THAT TIME? THE BEST WAY IS TOO SEND THEM IN RAW AND IS USALLY CHEAPER,THEN PAYING 30.00 FOR EACH CROSSOVER.

Gerry

Has anyone responding to this interesting post have experience with crossing PCGS coins over to NGC? I understand that this is done frequently though it may not be for high-graded coins. In any case, what is your experience from that perspective? Is NGC biased against PCGS? Do you get the same grades? High grades? Low grades? Etc. Thank you.

CarlWohlforth

I've never been motivated to cross PCGS to NGC. That is because the same exact coin in an NGC holder brings less money for many of the coins I look at.

If there were a PQ PCGS coin that PCGS won't upgrade it might be possible to go for a higher grade in an NGC holder. I never tried it, I've also heard NGC might be tighter now so that strategy might not work anymore. However I have seen several proof coin that have nice cameo contrast but don't quite have enough for the PCGS Cameo designation. I'd bet many of these would cross to a NGC Cameo so I'm sure some people play that game.

DHeath

Stockford,

While not defending PCGS's grading, I'll tell you that grading a coin in a holder is more risk that grading one raw. If PCGS cracks the NGC holder, they are guaranteeing the crossover. Flaws in the plastic are sometimes difficult to distinguish from flaws in the coin.

ArtR

I know one collector of toned coins who tries to cross every thing into NGC holders just to have uniformity in his holders, and also he believes the white holders show off the toning better than a PCGS holder. He has had good luck on his crossovers most grade the same and every now and then an upgrade. Now these were common date coins and probably not a good indicator if NGC shows any bias or not. A tough date or a big spread coin would be a much better example to truly test this.

Catch22

The hobby would be better served by authentication service only. I was around during the advent of grading and the subsequent supposed liquidity on Wall Street. At best, the services should issue a range of grade opinion or a breakdown of a coins technical merits. My two cents worth.......

KAJ1

DHeath,

I think you hit the nail on the head.



<< <i>If PCGS cracks the NGC holder, they are guaranteeing the crossover. Flaws in the plastic are sometimes difficult to distinguish from flaws in the coin. >>




They crack it ,they bought it !
Better safe than sorry.If even 1% doubt~~~~ DNC.


Kevin