Not related to the weak and missing mint marks, but came across this cool picture doing my research!
Of course, losing the use of this die fairly early in its life did increase the demand upon the other 19 obverse dies used!
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Anybody have a Sixth Edition Redbook handy? Missing that one from my set.
How does it list the 1922 varieties, please?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
About to write up the section on Die Pair #4 coins. Attached is an example of a Very Late Die State coin. Does anybody have a high grade one of these?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Have been trying to tell if two varieties are just vastly different die states of each other or two different dies. Been looking at microscope cameras to help match up flow lines.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
The project grew from an article to a book. I have finished my manuscript and submitted it to a publisher. Will see what happens.
Organizing the photographs that I have, and then will finish up any microphotography that I need. Does anybody have any interesting 1922-D or No D or Weak D ephemera that might make an interesting photograph in the book? For example, I saw this envelope and flyer on eBay
but it went for way too much money for the coin, perhaps because it was accidentally misidentified as a "No D" in the original listing. I cannot use this picture because I do not own it, but perhaps one of you has one of these flyers and envelopes you could photograph for me?
Anything interesting in the way of holders might work. I have a single 2x2 Capital Plastic holder with 1922D printed on it.
Any lucky piece encased 1922-D cents might be of interest. I have several.
Hope to have the artwork to the publisher by the end of January, if we can work out a contract. I have one other publisher interested if the first one passes.
Thanks for any help!
TD
P.S.: I have solved the mystery of why Die Pair #2 shows no mint mark. The explanation will be in the book.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
This may not be what you’re looking for but I collect raw 22 D cents, I have 7 of them but this one is different. The I and b in liberty are almost completely missing. Weak reverse yes, but could be a clogged die? Not sure. I have another with a reverse die crack at the O in Of America at the bottom.
I spoke with representatives of CDN Publications and Whitman Publishing this morning, and they have agreed to publish my book on the Lincoln Cents of 1922. It will include coins that have Normal D's. Worn D's, Well Worn D's, Faint D's. Very Faint D's and No D's. There will be many new die pairs listed, including one new "No D" die pair, and a ton of new information. Should be out next year.
What started out to be a 3,000 word article turned into a 58,000+ “WOIDS!!!” book, not counting captions. There will be a lot of pictures.
The plan is to incorporate some of the new listings and information into the 7th Edition of "The Cherrypickers Guide." More on that later.
Thanks to Bill Fivaz for asking me five years ago to write that article. THen the tale grew in the telling.....
Tom DeLorey
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
...
What started out to be a 3,000 word article turned into a 58,000+ page book, not counting captions. There will be a lot of pictures.
@CaptHenway said:
I spoke with representatives of CDN Publications and Whitman Publishing this morning, and they have agreed to publish my book on the Lincoln Cents of 1922. It will include coins that have Normal D's. Worn D's, Well Worn D's, Faint D's. Very Faint D's and No D's. There will be many new die pairs listed, including one new "No D" die pair, and a ton of new information. Should be out next year.
What started out to be a 3,000 word article turned into a 58,000+ page book, not counting captions. There will be a lot of pictures.
The plan is to incorporate some of the new listings and information into the 7th Edition of "The Cherrypickers Guide." More on that later.
Thanks to Bill Fivaz for asking me five years ago to write that article. THen the tale grew in the telling.....
Tom DeLorey
I'll look forward to buying it. Hopefully it has less than 58,000 pages.
God Bless, CRHer700
Do unto others what you expect to be done to you.
Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@WaterSport said:
Great achievement - Look forward to adding it to the library.
WS
Thank you.
What do you think is the demand for such a book, especially if part of it gets incorporated into the Cherry Pickers Guide?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I remember back in the 1970’s how the experts stated the 1922 no D cent with strong reverse was not a pure 1922 no D cent. Only the weak reverse was the cent to own. Then 20 years later it was the other way around! What happened?
I am so confused that i might no longer remember which was the reverse to look for back then and now.
Can we start at the beginning? I'm sorry about this, but I'd never before thought to inquire. Where were these 1922 dies hubbed? Were they hubbed in Philly then shipped to the branch mint for the affixing of the marks or were they hubbed at the branch mint? Just what if anything came from Philly?
@Pizzaman said:
Can we start at the beginning? I'm sorry about this, but I'd never before thought to inquire. Where were these 1922 dies hubbed? Were they hubbed in Philly then shipped to the branch mint for the affixing of the marks or were they hubbed at the branch mint? Just what if anything came from Philly?
Back then the only die shop was in Philly. They hubbed all dies, added mint marks to some, hardened the dies and shipped them to SF or Denver as necessary.
The book will present a brand new, and fairly startling, theory about the dies used in Denver in 1922.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@oreville said:
I remember back in the 1970’s how the experts stated the 1922 no D cent with strong reverse was not a pure 1922 no D cent. Only the weak reverse was the cent to own. Then 20 years later it was the other way around! What happened?
I am so confused that i might no longer remember which was the reverse to look for back then and now.
No, then as now the “No D, Strong Reverse” was the good one. I have discovered its origin.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@oreville said:
I remember back in the 1970’s how the experts stated the 1922 no D cent with strong reverse was not a pure 1922 no D cent. Only the weak reverse was the cent to own. Then 20 years later it was the other way around! What happened?
I am so confused that i might no longer remember which was the reverse to look for back then and now.
No, then as now the “No D, Strong Reverse” was the good one. I have discovered its origin.
Perhaps you would not object telling me (us) the details of your discovery even in a separate thread to avoid hijacking your current thread? I assume that it was a previously reported discovery years ago.
@Pizzaman said:
Can we start at the beginning? I'm sorry about this, but I'd never before thought to inquire. Where were these 1922 dies hubbed? Were they hubbed in Philly then shipped to the branch mint for the affixing of the marks or were they hubbed at the branch mint? Just what if anything came from Philly?
Back then the only die shop was in Philly. They hubbed all dies, added mint marks to some, hardened the dies and shipped them to SF or Denver as necessary.
The book will present a brand new, and fairly startling, theory about the dies used in Denver in 1922.
Thank you so much, Tom. To get further into the weeds, then, presumably all these dies that came from the Philly Mint were 1922-D dies wherein the marks had been punched in at the Philly Mint, the "Weak" and "No" Ds having been the consequence of intervention of some sort or another at the Denver Mint, is that consistent with the way you understand it? I'm just trying to clarify for my own understanding.
As far as the rest of the 1922 cent story I always found it fascinating. The 1922 regular D the 1922-weak D and the 1922 no D. I seem to recall reading that many of the 1922 no D was really a very VERY weak D that was not visible to the naked eye and somehow the wrong class of reverse was the diagnostic clue.
@oreville said:
As far as the rest of the 1922 cent story I always found it fascinating. The 1922 regular D the 1922-weak D and the 1922 no D. I seem to recall reading that many of the 1922 no D was really a very VERY weak D that was not visible to the naked eye and somehow the wrong class of reverse was the diagnostic clue.
Neither of those will show a D. If you can see any trace of a D, it's neither a weak nor a no D. That's how I learned it. The weak and no Ds are differentiated on known die attributes, not a magnifying glass.
@oreville said:
I remember back in the 1970’s how the experts stated the 1922 no D cent with strong reverse was not a pure 1922 no D cent. Only the weak reverse was the cent to own. Then 20 years later it was the other way around! What happened?
I am so confused that i might no longer remember which was the reverse to look for back then and now.
No, then as now the “No D, Strong Reverse” was the good one. I have discovered its origin.
Perhaps you would not object telling me (us) the details of your discovery even in a separate thread to avoid hijacking your current thread? I assume that it was a previously reported discovery years ago.
No, it isn’t.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Sorry I have been unavailable to do this properly for the past few days. Everybody is fine now.
First of all, there are legitimate 1922 "No D" cents from three different causes. There are multiple dies that show various "Worn D" and "Faint D" mint marks from related causes. Some of these obverse dies come with various reverses of greatly different strengths (sometimes 2 or 3 paired with the same obverse) to the point that everything you thought you knew about 1922 reverses is now obsolete. This will be explained in the book.
Second of all, the Mint did something during its manufacturing of 1922-D cent dies that it never, to the best of my research, ever did before or since. This anomaly either directly or indirectly resulted in the various missing or incomplete mint marks. This will be explained in the book.
Thirdly, Kaiser Bill had something to do with it all. This will be explained in the book.
Please don't ask me to give the book away free here. I have invested five years of my life and a lot of expenses in getting to this point. Please let me sell a few books to help recover some of those costs. I did this as an exercise in pure Numismatics to answer a question put to me by Bill Fivaz back in 2019, but even a Numismatist has to eat.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I don't collect Lincoln cents but please let us know how to purchase the book when it becomes available. There is a good amount of mystery around these coins, and I look forward to reading about it.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
@Martin said: @CaptHenway I’m up for the book but please tell me it’s not 58,000 pages
Martin
Words.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
Sorry I have been unavailable to do this properly for the past few days. Everybody is fine now.
First of all, there are legitimate 1922 "No D" cents from three different causes. There are multiple dies that show various "Worn D" and "Faint D" mint marks from related causes. Some of these obverse dies come with various reverses of greatly different strengths (sometimes 2 or 3 paired with the same obverse) to the point that everything you thought you knew about 1922 reverses is now obsolete. This will be explained in the book.
Second of all, the Mint did something during its manufacturing of 1922-D cent dies that it never, to the best of my research, ever did before or since. This anomaly either directly or indirectly resulted in the various missing or incomplete mint marks. This will be explained in the book.
Thirdly, Kaiser Bill had something to do with it all. This will be explained in the book.
Please don't ask me to give the book away free here. I have invested five years of my life and a lot of expenses in getting to this point. Please let me sell a few books to help recover some of those costs. I did this as an exercise in pure Numismatics to answer a question put to me by Bill Fivaz back in 2019, but even a Numismatist has to eat.
TD
Without giving away your book details can you summarize whether the creation of the missing D mint mark was a or an
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
Not related to the weak and missing mint marks, but came across this cool picture doing my research!
Of course, losing the use of this die fairly early in its life did increase the demand upon the other 19 obverse dies used!
TD
Anybody have a Sixth Edition Redbook handy? Missing that one from my set.
How does it list the 1922 varieties, please?
Pulled my 6th Ed off the shelf.
Three varieties:
1922D
1922D (broken D)
1922 Plain (No D)
Hope this helps
Night Hawk
Thanks!
About to write up the section on Die Pair #4 coins. Attached is an example of a Very Late Die State coin. Does anybody have a high grade one of these?
Bump, any updates?
POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN
Love for Music / Collector of Dreck
Have been trying to tell if two varieties are just vastly different die states of each other or two different dies. Been looking at microscope cameras to help match up flow lines.
Old thread revived.
The project grew from an article to a book. I have finished my manuscript and submitted it to a publisher. Will see what happens.
Organizing the photographs that I have, and then will finish up any microphotography that I need. Does anybody have any interesting 1922-D or No D or Weak D ephemera that might make an interesting photograph in the book? For example, I saw this envelope and flyer on eBay
but it went for way too much money for the coin, perhaps because it was accidentally misidentified as a "No D" in the original listing. I cannot use this picture because I do not own it, but perhaps one of you has one of these flyers and envelopes you could photograph for me?
Anything interesting in the way of holders might work. I have a single 2x2 Capital Plastic holder with 1922D printed on it.
Any lucky piece encased 1922-D cents might be of interest. I have several.
Hope to have the artwork to the publisher by the end of January, if we can work out a contract. I have one other publisher interested if the first one passes.
Thanks for any help!
TD
P.S.: I have solved the mystery of why Die Pair #2 shows no mint mark. The explanation will be in the book.
Keep us updated. I will certainly be getting a copy when it comes out.
Probably not what you are looking for, but it is different in the field striations, mint mark not so great.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
No longer my coin, but I know who bought it
This may not be what you’re looking for but I collect raw 22 D cents, I have 7 of them but this one is different. The I and b in liberty are almost completely missing. Weak reverse yes, but could be a clogged die? Not sure. I have another with a reverse die crack at the O in Of America at the bottom.
I spoke with representatives of CDN Publications and Whitman Publishing this morning, and they have agreed to publish my book on the Lincoln Cents of 1922. It will include coins that have Normal D's. Worn D's, Well Worn D's, Faint D's. Very Faint D's and No D's. There will be many new die pairs listed, including one new "No D" die pair, and a ton of new information. Should be out next year.
What started out to be a 3,000 word article turned into a 58,000+ “WOIDS!!!” book, not counting captions. There will be a lot of pictures.
The plan is to incorporate some of the new listings and information into the 7th Edition of "The Cherrypickers Guide." More on that later.
Thanks to Bill Fivaz for asking me five years ago to write that article. THen the tale grew in the telling.....
Tom DeLorey
Congratulations on concluding your challenge. Wishing you and publishers great sales.
Great news. Sign me up for an autographed copy.
Well deserved cudos for your contributions to our hobby. So grateful to learn valuable numismatic knowledge from you. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken
Wow, congrats Tom! Certainly another well deserved notch on the ol' numismatic belt for you. Looking forward to reading it eventually.
That's going to cost a fortune to ship.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Pretty strong clashes on this one. (Not my coin).
I'll look forward to buying it. Hopefully it has less than 58,000 pages.
God Bless, CRHer700
Do unto others what you expect to be done to you.
Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24
My word!
Those are die cracks.
To be fair, there's also a nice clash between CE in CENT from the area around the back of Lincoln's neck.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Great achievement - Look forward to adding it to the library.
WS
Thank you.
What do you think is the demand for such a book, especially if part of it gets incorporated into the Cherry Pickers Guide?
I remember back in the 1970’s how the experts stated the 1922 no D cent with strong reverse was not a pure 1922 no D cent. Only the weak reverse was the cent to own. Then 20 years later it was the other way around! What happened?
I am so confused that i might no longer remember which was the reverse to look for back then and now.
Monumental achievement & a great reference for the hobby. Thanks to you for all your hard work & diligence completing this project!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Can we start at the beginning? I'm sorry about this, but I'd never before thought to inquire. Where were these 1922 dies hubbed? Were they hubbed in Philly then shipped to the branch mint for the affixing of the marks or were they hubbed at the branch mint? Just what if anything came from Philly?
Back then the only die shop was in Philly. They hubbed all dies, added mint marks to some, hardened the dies and shipped them to SF or Denver as necessary.
The book will present a brand new, and fairly startling, theory about the dies used in Denver in 1922.
No, then as now the “No D, Strong Reverse” was the good one. I have discovered its origin.
Will you be selling it in a pdf version?
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Perhaps you would not object telling me (us) the details of your discovery even in a separate thread to avoid hijacking your current thread? I assume that it was a previously reported discovery years ago.
Thank you so much, Tom. To get further into the weeds, then, presumably all these dies that came from the Philly Mint were 1922-D dies wherein the marks had been punched in at the Philly Mint, the "Weak" and "No" Ds having been the consequence of intervention of some sort or another at the Denver Mint, is that consistent with the way you understand it? I'm just trying to clarify for my own understanding.
As far as the rest of the 1922 cent story I always found it fascinating. The 1922 regular D the 1922-weak D and the 1922 no D. I seem to recall reading that many of the 1922 no D was really a very VERY weak D that was not visible to the naked eye and somehow the wrong class of reverse was the diagnostic clue.
Neither of those will show a D. If you can see any trace of a D, it's neither a weak nor a no D. That's how I learned it. The weak and no Ds are differentiated on known die attributes, not a magnifying glass.
No, it isn’t.
Good info, will check my example(s) tomorrow.
bob
Sorry I have been unavailable to do this properly for the past few days. Everybody is fine now.
First of all, there are legitimate 1922 "No D" cents from three different causes. There are multiple dies that show various "Worn D" and "Faint D" mint marks from related causes. Some of these obverse dies come with various reverses of greatly different strengths (sometimes 2 or 3 paired with the same obverse) to the point that everything you thought you knew about 1922 reverses is now obsolete. This will be explained in the book.
Second of all, the Mint did something during its manufacturing of 1922-D cent dies that it never, to the best of my research, ever did before or since. This anomaly either directly or indirectly resulted in the various missing or incomplete mint marks. This will be explained in the book.
Thirdly, Kaiser Bill had something to do with it all. This will be explained in the book.
Please don't ask me to give the book away free here. I have invested five years of my life and a lot of expenses in getting to this point. Please let me sell a few books to help recover some of those costs. I did this as an exercise in pure Numismatics to answer a question put to me by Bill Fivaz back in 2019, but even a Numismatist has to eat.
TD
I don't collect Lincoln cents but please let us know how to purchase the book when it becomes available. There is a good amount of mystery around these coins, and I look forward to reading about it.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
@CaptHenway I’m up for the book but please tell me it’s not 58,000 pages
Martin
Words.
You planning on a 1922 no D cent origin for Dummies version?
I happen to own two 1922 no D cents in circulated condition. They are cool.
Without giving away your book details can you summarize whether the creation of the missing D mint mark was a or an
Machine Accident
Or
Human accident
Or
Human intentional error?
That makes a difference.
I look forward to it. I have more than a roll of 1922-d cents from a recent wheat cent purchase. I will certainly purchase one!
I have a 1922 "no D" with what appears to be a die crack near the date. Have not seen any others like it.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/34521497
PCGS pics are all that I have.
Appears to be some sort of damage.
"Appears to be some sort of damage."
Thanks for the reply. I was never sure if it got details for the "crack" or the scratch marks to remove it or both.