Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

messydeskmessydesk Posts: 16,223 ✭✭✭✭✭

One question that comes up frequently is whether something is a doubled die or just machine (or mechanical, or ejection) doubling. These are two really good guides for answering that question. Since a picture is worth a thousand words, I'll start with this diagram by Charles Daughtrey (coppercoins.com) illustrating the difference between machine doubling and a doubled die (called "hub doubling" in the diagram).

I'll follow that with this link to a monograph by JT Stanton about doubled dies and their evil mimics. JT wrote this years ago, and it's still an outstanding article about the differences. I include it as an appendix to the class notes of the Morgan Dollar class I teach at the ANA Summer Seminar.

If this is question encountered frequently enough that the mods think this is worth pinning in this forum, great. If not, that's fine, too.

Comments

  • KliaoKliao Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭

    This is really helpful thanks!

    Young Numismatist here. Enjoy collecting coins and selling items to fund my collection

    Please see my eBay store for jewelry and a few coins!
    https://www.ebay.com/usr/kliao-69

    Positive BST transactions with LukeMarshall, hrtfxr, PerryHall, Greedoguy

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 12,813 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is just one of JT's contributions to numismatics. After I call folks who send in coins that are not true DD's, I include a copy of JT's article. THANKS for posting it.

  • TimbobbTimbobb Posts: 239 ✭✭✭

    Came across this. It’s a true DD. Modern shielded penny.

  • loro1rojoloro1rojo Posts: 266 ✭✭✭

    @Timbobb said:
    Came across this. It’s a true DD. Modern shielded penny.
    awesome doubled die. Couldn't have taken better pictures of the doubling!

    -Gabe
  • OldhoopsterOldhoopster Posts: 538 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019 4:32AM

    @Timbobb said:
    Came across this. It’s a true DD. Modern shielded penny.

    Pics aren't sharp enough to see anything. How do you know it's a true DD? Does it match with a variety on DoubledDie.com or Varirty Vista?

    Member of the ANA since 1982
  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 8,270 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Timbobb said:
    Came across this. It’s a true DD. Modern shielded penny.

    Currently, three known. Which do you have?

    Focused pics are needed for any reasonable opinion.

    http://varietyvista.com/01e LC Doubled Dies Vol 5/DDOs 2015 cent.htm

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 2,801 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Date or lettering, pick one and focus in. Peace Roy

  • TimbobbTimbobb Posts: 239 ✭✭✭



    @Oldhoopster said:

    @Timbobb said:
    Came across this. It’s a true DD. Modern shielded penny.

    Pics aren't sharp enough to see anything. How do you know it's a true DD? Does it match with a variety on DoubledDie.com or Varirty Vista?

  • TimbobbTimbobb Posts: 239 ✭✭✭

    @Hemispherical said:

    @Timbobb said:
    Came across this. It’s a true DD. Modern shielded penny.

    Currently, three known. Which do you have?

    Focused pics are needed for any reasonable opinion.

    http://varietyvista.com/01e LC Doubled Dies Vol 5/DDOs 2015 cent.htm

    I have # 4

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 16,223 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Doubled die is easiest to see on the top and bottom of the 1 in the large picture above.

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 8,270 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I know it’s pareidolia but it’s a cool looking king cobra pareidolia snake. :D

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @messydesk Thanks for the pic in the OP. It is great. I have seen it many times, but many people have not. Perhaps this should be pinned/stickied?

    Besides studying that diagram, some great advice is to look for DDs on coins with known DDs. I cannot tell you how many posts I see from beginners who are looking for DDs randomly. This advice is very important.

    Yes, unknowns are discovered. But it is by people who know what to look for.

  • loro1rojoloro1rojo Posts: 266 ✭✭✭

    @Timbobb said:


    @Oldhoopster said:

    @Timbobb said:
    Came across this. It’s a true DD. Modern shielded penny.

    Pics aren't sharp enough to see anything. How do you know it's a true DD? Does it match with a variety on DoubledDie.com or Varirty Vista?

    Yes you have a doubled die. One of the better ones in recent years.

    -Gabe
  • TimbobbTimbobb Posts: 239 ✭✭✭

    @Timbobb said:

    @Hemispherical said:

    @Timbobb said:
    Came across this. It’s a true DD. Modern shielded penny.

    Currently, three known. Which do you have?

    Focused pics are needed for any reasonable opinion.

    http://varietyvista.com/01e LC Doubled Dies Vol 5/DDOs 2015 cent.htm

    I have # 4

    I found another y’all. 2015 DDO. And this one is better than the first one I found.

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 16,223 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Timbobb said:
    I found another y’all. 2015 DDO. And this one is better than the first one I found.

    Looks like DDO-001

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 8,270 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Seeing a possible spread on the letters and numbers... looking like a DD.

  • Thank you for sharing this example of what to look for in a DDO. Are machined DDO's worth less that the other types of ddo's?

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 8,270 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Machine doubling not machine doubled die.

  • OldhoopsterOldhoopster Posts: 538 ✭✭✭✭

    @SFDSA said:
    Thank you for sharing this example of what to look for in a DDO. Are machined DDO's worth less that the other types of ddo's?

    Machine doubling, also known as mechanical doubling and strike doubling adds no value to a coin. Error expert John Wexler calls it worthless doubling. The following link has a great explanation under the tab called "worthless. Doubling"

    http://doubleddie.com/144801.html

    Member of the ANA since 1982
  • Thank you for the link! As far as grading is concerned will pcgs still grade it as a DDO or FS 101, with this machining on the front of the coin?
    Thank you

  • TimbobbTimbobb Posts: 239 ✭✭✭

    So now my question is will that 2015 DDO. In Variety vista list it’s DDO-001. In the Wexler list it’s DDO-006. So which one is it for real. With the Wexler 2015 penny DDO-001. I don’t see nothing Doubled about it!

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 8,270 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Timbobb said:
    So now my question is will that 2015 DDO. In Variety vista list it’s DDO-001. In the Wexler list it’s DDO-006. So which one is it for real. With the Wexler 2015 penny DDO-001. I don’t see nothing Doubled about it!

    Use what’s in the CPG, especially, if you plan on getting it certified. Our hosts uses the CPG for variety attributions.

  • TimbobbTimbobb Posts: 239 ✭✭✭

    @Hemispherical said:

    @Timbobb said:
    So now my question is will that 2015 DDO. In Variety vista list it’s DDO-001. In the Wexler list it’s DDO-006. So which one is it for real. With the Wexler 2015 penny DDO-001. I don’t see nothing Doubled about it!

    Use what’s in the CPG, especially, if you plan on getting it certified. Our hosts uses the CPG for variety attributions.

    Funny question here. But this is how we continue to learn. What is CPG??..lol..

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 8,270 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Timbobb said:

    @Hemispherical said:

    @Timbobb said:
    So now my question is will that 2015 DDO. In Variety vista list it’s DDO-001. In the Wexler list it’s DDO-006. So which one is it for real. With the Wexler 2015 penny DDO-001. I don’t see nothing Doubled about it!

    Use what’s in the CPG, especially, if you plan on getting it certified. Our hosts uses the CPG for variety attributions.

    Funny question here. But this is how we continue to learn. What is CPG??..lol..

    I should have typed it out. CPG is the Cherrypickers’ Guide.

    Here’s the link from PCGS that explains what references are used for variety attributions.

    https://www.pcgs.com/varietyfaq

  • TimbobbTimbobb Posts: 239 ✭✭✭

    Thank you.

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 16,223 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Timbobb said:
    So now my question is will that 2015 DDO. In Variety vista list it’s DDO-001. In the Wexler list it’s DDO-006. So which one is it for real. With the Wexler 2015 penny DDO-001. I don’t see nothing Doubled about it.

    They're two separate catalogs. The CONECA (Variety Vista) listings typically take precedence over the Wexler listings, with the Wexler numbers (WDDO-006, in this case) only being used if the variety is not listed by CONECA. So in this case, most people would prefer it to be called DDO-001.

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