I don't follow the game at all, and I think it's changed too much over the decades to make any kind of reasonable comparison across eras. Lebron is head and shoulders better than anyone from his own era and makes as good a candidate for GOAT as anyone. From the nearer past, I'd vote for Magic; from the era before that for Wilt, and for the era before that for Dolph Schayes. To ask if Dolph Schayes was as good as Lebron is about the same the same as asking if Jack Nicklaus was as good as Mike Trout; they were playing different games.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Interesting early take: Divergent posters from all over the US, some big time homers, ages run from 20-85, but most realize there are only a few considered GOAT in the past 70 years.
@dallasactuary said:
I don't follow the game at all, and I think it's changed too much over the decades to make any kind of reasonable comparison across eras. Lebron is head and shoulders better than anyone from his own era and makes as good a candidate for GOAT as anyone. From the nearer past, I'd vote for Magic; from the era before that for Wilt, and for the era before that for Dolph Schayes. To ask if Dolph Schayes was as good as Lebron is about the same the same as asking if Jack Nicklaus was as good as Mike Trout; they were playing different games.
True, but no one dominated like Wilt.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Wilt. goodness, he averaged 50 points per game in one season, led the league in minutes played averaging over 48 mins per game. They even had to change the rules about being in the lane because of him.
@JRR300 said:
Wilt. goodness, he averaged 50 points per game in one season, led the league in minutes played averaging over 48 mins per game. They even had to change the rules about being in the lane because of him.
YES! Then, look at his rebounding numbers. Never fouled out of a game either.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I'm not going to break out all of the Jordan gifs, but I have to show this ridiculous shot. Michael was unguardable. He was a master at the turn around fade away, the most difficult shot to make. Nobody could defend him. You just can't defend the kind of shots he took.
@JRR300 said:
Wilt. goodness, he averaged 50 points per game in one season, led the league in minutes played averaging over 48 mins per game. They even had to change the rules about being in the lane because of him.
YES! Then, look at his rebounding numbers. Never fouled out of a game either.
and I believe he even led the league in assists one year!
@JRR300 said:
Wilt. goodness, he averaged 50 points per game in one season, led the league in minutes played averaging over 48 mins per game. They even had to change the rules about being in the lane because of him.
YES! Then, look at his rebounding numbers. Never fouled out of a game either.
and I believe he even led the league in assists one year!
He did what he wanted on the court.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Larry Bird. Slow can't jump would even tell you what he was going to do on the next play and did it. He is not the most talented but I would start my team with him.
I don't know about the NBA but in the NCAA the one goat that really stands out is Chris "Fake Five" Webber who tried to call a time out when they had run out.
That is, if you're talking about the original definition of a "goat" in sports...
@firstbase23 said:
Larry Bird. Slow can't jump would even tell you what he was going to do on the next play and did it. He is not the most talented but I would start my team with him.
For some reason I have waited 19 days to read through this thread. My choice is Larry Bird. Before opening the thread, I felt with absolute certainty that no one else would have agreed with me. Pleasantly surprised to find I am the third to give this answer.
Yes, I grew up just south of Boston and grew up with Larry. So I understand those who would view this choice with cynicism. But I can truly say that, in my opinion, he is the greatest basketball player of all time.
Most have him in their top 20, and many have him in their top 10. If he had finished his career without injury, no doubt his accomplishments would have been greater and longer. Perhaps that would have made him an obvious top 3 in the majority consensus. I don't know.
Either way, I love showing those unfamiliar his highlights. YouTube has many of his highlight videos. The comment sections are filled with people in shock , never before realizing what he could do.
I'm glad I got to see him play live at the old Garden a few times growing up. Larry legend. https://youtu.be/hcXv0JtzNQA
@DIMEMAN said:
I (and most others) still say Jordan is the GOAT. How many rings does Wilt have?
You (and most others, would be wrong). I didn't bother to look up rings because it's meaningless.
It amazes me how some people look at one thing, scoring, and make their decision. It took Jordan 20 games to score one more point than Wilt, and he took more shots. He's not even better offensively, and you are ignoring rebounds.
Then they start talking championships which is pointless in any team sport.
In basketball, more than in any of the team sports, you have to play both offense and defense.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@JoeBanzai said:
In basketball, more than in any of the team sports, you have to play both offense and defense.
Exactly the same situation in hockey, which is why I think of Orr as the GOAT rather than Gretzky. Brett Hull is #4 all time in goals scored, but he is not in the same universe as the fourth greatest player of all time because he couldn't play defense.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@DIMEMAN said:
I (and most others) still say Jordan is the GOAT. How many rings does Wilt have?
You (and most others, would be wrong). I didn't bother to look up rings because it's meaningless.
It amazes me how some people look at one thing, scoring, and make their decision. It took Jordan 20 games to score one more point than Wilt, and he took more shots. He's not even better offensively, and you are ignoring rebounds.
Then they start talking championships which is pointless in any team sport.
In basketball, more than in any of the team sports, you have to play both offense and defense.
You can go with Wilt if you want. That is your choice. But every list I have seen anywhere has Jordan as the GOAT. I think scoring is considered and defense and how many Championships did he take you to. You are putting too much on rebounds because Wilt has so may. He should have since he was over 7 feet tall when at that time most centers were much shorter. I place more value on points and defense, which Jordan was very good at. I'm not going to argue any more. We will have to agree to disagree. Like I said Jordan is the Goat on the list out there. And they probably have LeBaby ahead of Wilt. And by the way I agree Wilt was a GREAT player.
Four seasons, four rings. That’s all Gene Guarilia needed. He played for Boston for four seasons, from 1959-60 through 1962-63, winning a ring every single season. Guarilia may not have been the star of the team, not even close. He never started a game, played on _average 8.4 minutes a game _and averaged just** 3.2 PPG and 2.3 rebounds**.
Four seasons, four rings. That’s all Gene Guarilia needed. He played for Boston for four seasons, from 1959-60 through 1962-63, winning a ring every single season. Guarilia may not have been the star of the team, not even close. He never started a game, played on _average 8.4 minutes a game _and averaged just** 3.2 PPG and 2.3 rebounds**.
Irrefutable proof that Rings don't mean SQUAT!!!!
close thread.
Man...….you just don't get it!! You go out and find guys that were just on a team that happened to win Championships. Jordan is THE reason for the Championships. Surely you see the difference! If not please don't even respond.
Four seasons, four rings. That’s all Gene Guarilia needed. He played for Boston for four seasons, from 1959-60 through 1962-63, winning a ring every single season. Guarilia may not have been the star of the team, not even close. He never started a game, played on _average 8.4 minutes a game _and averaged just** 3.2 PPG and 2.3 rebounds**.
Irrefutable proof that Rings don't mean SQUAT!!!!
close thread.
Man...….you just don't get it!! You go out and find guys that were just on a team that happened to win Championships. Jordan is THE reason for the Championships. Surely you see the difference! If not please don't even respond.
Wrong.
You don't get it.
There are hundreds of so-so athletes who have multiple championship rings.
they mean nothing except to those who know nothing about sports.
Four seasons, four rings. That’s all Gene Guarilia needed. He played for Boston for four seasons, from 1959-60 through 1962-63, winning a ring every single season. Guarilia may not have been the star of the team, not even close. He never started a game, played on _average 8.4 minutes a game _and averaged just** 3.2 PPG and 2.3 rebounds**.
Irrefutable proof that Rings don't mean SQUAT!!!!
close thread.
Man...….you just don't get it!! You go out and find guys that were just on a team that happened to win Championships. Jordan is THE reason for the Championships. Surely you see the difference! If not please don't even respond.
Wrong.
You don't get it.
There are hundreds of so-so athletes who have multiple championship rings.
they mean nothing except to those who know nothing about sports.
@DIMEMAN said:
Man...….you just don't get it!! You go out and find guys that were just on a team that happened to win Championships. Jordan is THE reason for the Championships. Surely you see the difference! If not please don't even respond.
One of you doesn't get it, that's for sure. Your position, as you've stated it, is that you could drop Jordan down in the middle of any 11 other NBA players, call it a team, and Jordan will win championships with that team. Your position is that Scottie Pippen gets zero credit for any of those championships, that nobody else gets any credit. It was Jordan, and Jordan alone. It's not as preposterous as giving Bill Russell credit for championships at the expense of all the other HOFers surrounding him, but it's still preposterous.
If you want to make the reasonable case that Jordan deserves MORE credit than any of his teammates, you'll get no argument. But once you come down into the realm of the reasonable, and start allocating credit to everyone involved, you'll see that rings mean squat, that what matters is how well a player performed, not how well his teammates performed.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Four seasons, four rings. That’s all Gene Guarilia needed. He played for Boston for four seasons, from 1959-60 through 1962-63, winning a ring every single season. Guarilia may not have been the star of the team, not even close. He never started a game, played on _average 8.4 minutes a game _and averaged just** 3.2 PPG and 2.3 rebounds**.
Irrefutable proof that Rings don't mean SQUAT!!!!
close thread.
Man...….you just don't get it!! You go out and find guys that were just on a team that happened to win Championships. Jordan is THE reason for the Championships. Surely you see the difference! If not please don't even respond.
Wrong.
You don't get it.
There are hundreds of so-so athletes who have multiple championship rings.
they mean nothing except to those who know nothing about sports.
@JoeBanzai said:
In basketball, more than in any of the team sports, you have to play both offense and defense.
Exactly the same situation in hockey, which is why I think of Orr as the GOAT rather than Gretzky. Brett Hull is #4 all time in goals scored, but he is not in the same universe as the fourth greatest player of all time because he couldn't play defense.
@ For a guy who's tagline says my favorite player sucks, you have a lot of great opinions @dallasactuary Orr is definitely the NHL GOAT!!
Four seasons, four rings. That’s all Gene Guarilia needed. He played for Boston for four seasons, from 1959-60 through 1962-63, winning a ring every single season. Guarilia may not have been the star of the team, not even close. He never started a game, played on _average 8.4 minutes a game _and averaged just** 3.2 PPG and 2.3 rebounds**.
Irrefutable proof that Rings don't mean SQUAT!!!!
close thread.
Man...….you just don't get it!! You go out and find guys that were just on a team that happened to win Championships. Jordan is THE reason for the Championships. Surely you see the difference! If not please don't even respond.
Wrong.
You don't get it.
There are hundreds of so-so athletes who have multiple championship rings.
they mean nothing except to those who know nothing about sports.
You're wrong again Dimey.
YOU ARE BEYOND STUPID !!!
I've proven you wrong many times, it's really easy to because you have no education.
It shows to everyone on this board how stupid you really are.
It shows you don't even have the equivalent of a high school diploma.
Your ignorance envelops your entire being. At least you're first at something. You're the number one most ignorant poster here.
btw go back to night school, and try to get your GED with the rest of the dropouts.
@thisistheshow said:
@ For a guy who's tagline says my favorite player sucks, you have a lot of great opinions @dallasactuary Orr is definitely the NHL GOAT!!
Now, "sucks" is relative. Jim Rice was almost as good as Roy White, and White was very good. If your favorite player was Jack Morris, I can't help you; he just sucked.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@thisistheshow said:
@ For a guy who's tagline says my favorite player sucks, you have a lot of great opinions @dallasactuary Orr is definitely the NHL GOAT!!
Now, "sucks" is relative. Jim Rice was almost as good as Roy White, and White was very good. If your favorite player was Jack Morris, I can't help you; he just sucked.
I was referring to Rice.
He was my Dad's favorite. My father passed in 1981 but I kept up my love for Rice.
When I got older, I decided to research him more and I always come away with tremendous respect for him. I have read all the criticism, but I don't agree. If not for his vision problems, he would have played longer, and I think a lot of the criticism would be irrelevant.
hammer1
Posts: 3,874 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
Wilt
No contest Jordan
Michael Jordan
I don't follow the game at all, and I think it's changed too much over the decades to make any kind of reasonable comparison across eras. Lebron is head and shoulders better than anyone from his own era and makes as good a candidate for GOAT as anyone. From the nearer past, I'd vote for Magic; from the era before that for Wilt, and for the era before that for Dolph Schayes. To ask if Dolph Schayes was as good as Lebron is about the same the same as asking if Jack Nicklaus was as good as Mike Trout; they were playing different games.
Jordan
Interesting early take: Divergent posters from all over the US, some big time homers, ages run from 20-85, but most realize there are only a few considered GOAT in the past 70 years.
Michael.
Jordan
True, but no one dominated like Wilt.
Jordan/
Wilt
Jordan
For me it's BILL RUSSELL
Wilt. goodness, he averaged 50 points per game in one season, led the league in minutes played averaging over 48 mins per game. They even had to change the rules about being in the lane because of him.
YES! Then, look at his rebounding numbers. Never fouled out of a game either.
Wilt is still behind Jordan in PPG. And MJ is the GOAT!
I'm not going to break out all of the Jordan gifs, but I have to show this ridiculous shot. Michael was unguardable. He was a master at the turn around fade away, the most difficult shot to make. Nobody could defend him. You just can't defend the kind of shots he took.
One more turn around fade away. The most difficult shot to make. He was a master at this.
Michael was a player that could do it all, dunk, shoot, defend, a complete player, and leader. Now three cheers for the GOAT..
Hip, hip, hooray!
Hip, hip hooray!
Hip, hip hooray!
Wilt was great, but he had stilts for legs. Go ahead, try to guard me.
and I believe he even led the league in assists one year!
He did what he wanted on the court.
Wilt Chamberlain of course.
There is debate over this?
Shouldn't be.
Wilt Jordan.
Larry Bird. Slow can't jump would even tell you what he was going to do on the next play and did it. He is not the most talented but I would start my team with him.
Matt
I don't know about the NBA but in the NCAA the one goat that really stands out is Chris "Fake Five" Webber who tried to call a time out when they had run out.
That is, if you're talking about the original definition of a "goat" in sports...
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
Laguna Beach uses 1,000 goats to help prevent wildfires. https://www.katc.com/news/national-news/laguna-beach-uses-1-000-goats-to-help-prevent-wildfires
Jordan is sooooo far ahead of EVERYBODY in the GOAT list...……...it reminds me of Secretariat winning the Belmont in 1973!
Case closed......written in stone!!!!
I got to watch them both play many times.
Better athlete, shooter, playmaker, very hard to stop: Jordan
Better rebounder, Impossible to stop: Wilt
For some reason I have waited 19 days to read through this thread. My choice is Larry Bird. Before opening the thread, I felt with absolute certainty that no one else would have agreed with me. Pleasantly surprised to find I am the third to give this answer.
Yes, I grew up just south of Boston and grew up with Larry. So I understand those who would view this choice with cynicism. But I can truly say that, in my opinion, he is the greatest basketball player of all time.
Most have him in their top 20, and many have him in their top 10. If he had finished his career without injury, no doubt his accomplishments would have been greater and longer. Perhaps that would have made him an obvious top 3 in the majority consensus. I don't know.
Either way, I love showing those unfamiliar his highlights. YouTube has many of his highlight videos. The comment sections are filled with people in shock , never before realizing what he could do.
I'm glad I got to see him play live at the old Garden a few times growing up. Larry legend.
https://youtu.be/hcXv0JtzNQA
Did you know that the game is played at BOTH ends of the court?
Chamberlain scored .05 less points per game than Jordan. 30.07 to 30.12
Jordan got 17 less rebounds per game than Wilt. 6 to 23
Scoring is even, and rebounding isn't in the same universe.
Wilt is #1 in All Time in BOTH categories. He did it while playing the most minutes per game All Time!
FG%; Wilt #32 @ 53.97%, Mikey #162 @ 49.62
Jabbar and Karl Malone are really the only two even close. Lebron grabs a whole 7 rebounds per game.
Larry Bird was a great great player, no where near GOAT.
The game is more than offense.
To summarize;
Chamberlain #1 minutes per game, #1 scoring (tie with Mike) #1 rebounding.
If ever there was a case closed this is it!
I (and most others) still say Jordan is the GOAT. How many rings does Wilt have?
You (and most others, would be wrong). I didn't bother to look up rings because it's meaningless.
It amazes me how some people look at one thing, scoring, and make their decision. It took Jordan 20 games to score one more point than Wilt, and he took more shots. He's not even better offensively, and you are ignoring rebounds.
Then they start talking championships which is pointless in any team sport.
In basketball, more than in any of the team sports, you have to play both offense and defense.
Exactly the same situation in hockey, which is why I think of Orr as the GOAT rather than Gretzky. Brett Hull is #4 all time in goals scored, but he is not in the same universe as the fourth greatest player of all time because he couldn't play defense.
You can go with Wilt if you want. That is your choice. But every list I have seen anywhere has Jordan as the GOAT. I think scoring is considered and defense and how many Championships did he take you to. You are putting too much on rebounds because Wilt has so may. He should have since he was over 7 feet tall when at that time most centers were much shorter. I place more value on points and defense, which Jordan was very good at. I'm not going to argue any more. We will have to agree to disagree. Like I said Jordan is the Goat on the list out there. And they probably have LeBaby ahead of Wilt. And by the way I agree Wilt was a GREAT player.
Luke Walton won 2 championship rings for sitting on the bench 92% of the time.
Rings mean ZERO!!!!!
Big difference...….Jordan got those rings for the Bulls....not sitting on a bench. And rings DO mean a LOT !!
Rings don't mean SQUAT!!!!
Gene Guarilia – 4 championships
Four seasons, four rings. That’s all Gene Guarilia needed. He played for Boston for four seasons, from 1959-60 through 1962-63, winning a ring every single season. Guarilia may not have been the star of the team, not even close. He never started a game, played on _average 8.4 minutes a game _and averaged just** 3.2 PPG and 2.3 rebounds**.
Irrefutable proof that Rings don't mean SQUAT!!!!
close thread.
Man...….you just don't get it!! You go out and find guys that were just on a team that happened to win Championships. Jordan is THE reason for the Championships. Surely you see the difference! If not please don't even respond.
Wrong.
You don't get it.
There are hundreds of so-so athletes who have multiple championship rings.
they mean nothing except to those who know nothing about sports.
You're wrong again Dimey.
YOU ARE BEYOND STUPID !!!
One of you doesn't get it, that's for sure. Your position, as you've stated it, is that you could drop Jordan down in the middle of any 11 other NBA players, call it a team, and Jordan will win championships with that team. Your position is that Scottie Pippen gets zero credit for any of those championships, that nobody else gets any credit. It was Jordan, and Jordan alone. It's not as preposterous as giving Bill Russell credit for championships at the expense of all the other HOFers surrounding him, but it's still preposterous.
If you want to make the reasonable case that Jordan deserves MORE credit than any of his teammates, you'll get no argument. But once you come down into the realm of the reasonable, and start allocating credit to everyone involved, you'll see that rings mean squat, that what matters is how well a player performed, not how well his teammates performed.
Keep it civil @Dimeman. Be nice
@ For a guy who's tagline says my favorite player sucks,
you have a lot of great opinions @dallasactuary Orr is definitely the NHL GOAT!!
I've proven you wrong many times, it's really easy to because you have no education.
It shows to everyone on this board how stupid you really are.
It shows you don't even have the equivalent of a high school diploma.
Your ignorance envelops your entire being. At least you're first at something. You're the number one most ignorant poster here.
btw go back to night school, and try to get your GED with the rest of the dropouts.
Now, "sucks" is relative. Jim Rice was almost as good as Roy White, and White was very good. If your favorite player was Jack Morris, I can't help you; he just sucked.
Even Magic Johnson says Jordan is the GOAT. That's pretty high praise, coming from Magic.
I was referring to Rice.
He was my Dad's favorite. My father passed in 1981 but I kept up my love for Rice.
When I got older, I decided to research him more and I always come away with tremendous respect for him. I have read all the criticism, but I don't agree. If not for his vision problems, he would have played longer, and I think a lot of the criticism would be irrelevant.