you guys are like some weird priesthood debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Kershaw will let you down in the playoffs every time. Thats when people are actually watching.
Who cares if you are the best in the 8 month long induced coma known as the regular season
Kershaw has the lowest career ERA of any pitcher in the live ball era. He broke a streak of 10 straight sub-3 ERA seasons by putting up a 3.03. He's the only pitcher to lead the majors in ERA four straight years. Verlander has been better in the postseason but Kershaw has been MILES better in the regular.
again, ERA not the only component. Pitching in different leagues definitely attributes to most of that difference. Verlander has pitched the equivalent of almost 4 more seasons, and won over 50+ more games, so he's done it over a longer period of time. Doesn't that count for anything? If I told you as a GM that you could have your choice of two aces who pitched at almost the same level, but one would pitch for 4 more years, who would you take.
@JRR300 said:
again, ERA not the only component. Pitching in different leagues definitely attributes to most of that difference.
No, it doesn't. Kershaw's ERA is 0.89 runs per game better than Verlander's, and the AL scores, on average, 0.2 runs per game more than the NL (it was only 0.1 this year). Kershaw's career RAA (runs better than average) is 400, Verlander's is 392. And that is despite Verlander pitching 4 more seasons and 700 more innings. Verlander is a great pitcher; Kershaw is the greatest pitcher of his generation.
Verlander has pitched the equivalent of almost 4 more seasons, and won over 50+ more games, so he's done it over a longer period of time. Doesn't that count for anything? If I told you as a GM that you could have your choice of two aces who pitched at almost the same level, but one would pitch for 4 more years, who would you take.
Oh, come on. This only works as an argument once their careers are over. Verlander is 36, Kershaw is 31. Unless as a GM I'm also being told that Kershaw would be done at 31, I would definitely take Kershaw. Compare Kershaw's stats to Verlander's when Verlander had pitched 12 seasons and you'll see how clear the difference is.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
You are correct, but pitching longer, and worser, doesn't help your case. Verlander is 5 years older, so he should have more games and innings pitched. Games won is a horrible way to compare pitchers though.
They both win 17 games a year but Velander loses 10 while Kershaw loses 7.
ERA is really all you need to know in this case, and Kershaw's is a full run a game (.89 to be exact) lower. That's A LOT. Both pitchers toss the exact same number of innings, on average per year. Both pitchers pitch the exact same number of innings, on average per start.
The DH does make it tougher when comparing the two, but it's not like Kershaw was always pitching against 8 guys and a pitcher.
The game has (d)evolved so that you are facing a pinch hitter a lot more often in the NL. That tips the scale back a bit. With starting pitchers lasting 5(?) innings they are getting 1-2 AB per game, not 4-5. Kershaw gets 1.9 AB per game and his average start is about 6 2/3 innings. It's safe to say Kershaw faces the opposing pitcher only once a game, twice at the most.
The DH's are also not always a HOFer.
Two guys; Jim Thome and David Ortiz hit Verlander pretty hard with OPS' of 1.136 and 1.026. Other than that?
Your argument is that the DH's are worth a full run per game more than a starting pitcher who bats 1 time a game and a pinch hitter/s or position player/s that gets moved to the pitchers spot in the rotation and bat 3 times? How often do relievers come to bat in the NL? Almost never. In 2016 the entire pitching staff on LA had 318 PA in 162 games 1.9 per game.
Verlander was not in the top ten in ERA in his league 50% of the time, winning 1 Cy Young award, with a good argument for another in 2012.
Kershaw was #1 in his league in ERA 50% of the time and won 3 Cy Young's, with good claims to being the best in both 2012 and 2017.
Unless someone like skin, dallas, keets, tabe or another math/numbers guy can come up with some believable stats indicating it's a full run per game harder to pitch in the AL.........................I probably still wont be convinced!
;-)
Have a great weekend, it snowed here in Minnesota!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
regular season only matters with respect to getting into the playoffs , from a fan's perspective of course.
Is it safe to presume no one here owns a baseball team? Who here owns a team ? Raise your hand!
Why does a viewer care about ERA ? I might like to see no hitters , 20 strike out games etc from a pitcher. I don't care about wins , they don't matter now when there could be 8 pitchers for each team in a single game.
Mental masturbation , no one watches every game in the regular season, its impossible unless you are a house plant in a pot right in front of a TV that has the required 3 different cable packages.
The whole regular season is there to get my team to the world series , why do I want , on my team, a guy that chokes in the real games? That starter is only playing every 4 days , how does his ERA help the team the other 3 days ? 3 days is enough to exit the playoffs . Kershaw gags in game one he may be done for the year along with the rest of the team.
Random pitcher #7's era could be the best ever recorded , his team misses the playoffs its a failure. Regardless it has no effect on my life , unless my team wins the world series and I am arrested in the riot for tipping over a bus its like another tree falling in the forest no one heard.
The sport is dying and stat weenies are the killer
The innings do count for something. Verlander has twelve seasons where he threw over 200 innings, leading the league four times. Kershaw has five years over 200 and led the league once, and doubtful he will ever have another.
Best ERA+ seasons, and IP for that year. Then their runs saved above replacement for that year
Those are their six best seasons each, and it isn't far fetched at all to call that a draw when they are at the top of their game.
Granted, the runs saved above replacement try to take into account the defensive contribution, which can skew things. Those runs saved are the basis of WAR, which Verlander currently has the lead career wise vs Kershaw 71 to 68.
WAR has problems for sure, but as a ballpark estimate, it does show them neck and neck....and of course the jury is still out since they are both still playing.
Everyone going on about the post season, remember....
The regular season is basically the first round of the post season. You need to excel there to get to the second round.
162 games in the first round. Five games in the second round. Think about that for a minute.
As for Kershaw this season...that game is almost entirely on Dave Roberts shoulders. Kershaw is clearly not the pitcher he once was, and should not have been treated as such at that point of the game. Roberts had his closer available to pitch, and that should have been his time. Instead, he didn't even use his closer until the game was over.
Kershaw has certainly pitched well enough in several post seasons for his teams to win. He pitched bad in some too. However, it is a team game, and some guys are fortunate that when they pitch well, that the other players on their team also play well...and they win a championship. It doesn't always work out like that for others, and that is where luck and chance certainly play such a large role....especially in the game of baseball where the best player in the league is a non factor in several games a year since they go hitless. That is unique to baseball.
Some guys also play terribly in the post season and their teams win despite of them. Reggie Jackson is MR. October, and the A's advanced to the World Series despite three awful ALCS performances by Jackson. He was lucky he even got a chance to play in the WS where he did perform well and the team did too. His team carried him in the ALCS to get there. Kershaw didn't have that luxury as his manager first and foremost blew it for them this season...as well as his hitters not doing the job either.
@Skin2 said:
The innings do count for something. Verlander has twelve seasons where he threw over 200 innings, leading the league four times. Kershaw has five years over 200 and led the league once, and doubtful he will ever have another.
Best ERA+ seasons, and IP for that year. Then their runs saved above replacement for that year
Those are their six best seasons each, and it isn't far fetched at all to call that a draw when they are at the top of their game.
Granted, the runs saved above replacement try to take into account the defensive contribution, which can skew things. Those runs saved are the basis of WAR, which Verlander currently has the lead career wise vs Kershaw 71 to 68.
WAR has problems for sure, but as a ballpark estimate, it does show them neck and neck....and of course the jury is still out since they are both still playing.
Thanks for the input.
Looks like ERA+ is a clean sweep for Kershaw and 2016 is not in there ( assuming because of only 21 starts), but that was a pretty awesome 21 starts. Is it fair to pretend that year doesn't mean_ anything_?
I did mention that Verlander had 6 seasons where he was not in the top 10 in era, and Kershaw has only 2. Looking at their top 6 seasons will make Verlander a much better pitcher when comparing the two.
Try looking at their 6 worst seasons, I'll bet that tells a REALLY different story.
Innings pitched keeps coming up but in order for them to be equal Kershaw would have had to be in the majors at 17.
Everyone(?) also is assuming that Kershaw is done, but what do you think they were saying in Detroit in 2017?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Verlander had a couple stinkers in the middle of his career, no doubt, and that hurts his case too.
I don't think Kershaw is done. His days of dominance are though. His ERA was a 'lucky' 3.03 this year. Looking at his peripherals, unless he gets an uptick in Velocity or adds a more effective arsenal of pitches...I would say look for mid three's in his ERA next year at best.
Verlander had a couple stinkers in the middle of his career, no doubt, and that hurts his case too.
I don't think Kershaw is done. His days of dominance are though. His ERA was a 'lucky' 3.03 this year. Looking at his peripherals, unless he gets an uptick in Velocity or adds a more effective arsenal of pitches...I would say look for mid three's in his ERA next year at best.
He's young enough, so unless he quits to enjoy his millions, he should have a few more years.
I haven't seen him throw one single pitch, and might not ever see him, but he could bounce back and have a couple of very good years. I see he has back issues, that's not good.
Verlander did it, or he wouldn't even be in the conversation. In 2014, he allowed the most earned runs in the American League. The next year, time on the DL limited him to 20 starts.
I am more concerned with who the Twins are going to have as starters other than Berrios next year. I am worried that they are headed for a disaster. In fact if there's one thing I would bet on is, ownership won't go after any top starting pitchers.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Comments
you guys are like some weird priesthood debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Kershaw will let you down in the playoffs every time. Thats when people are actually watching.
Who cares if you are the best in the 8 month long induced coma known as the regular season
Yes.
Per the fire marshal and depending on the type of dance, the pin head’s dance floor capacity is anywhere from 2 - 11. Except for that one time.
gotta have lag bolts and joist hangars if there is gonna be dancing
Kershaw has the lowest career ERA of any pitcher in the live ball era. He broke a streak of 10 straight sub-3 ERA seasons by putting up a 3.03. He's the only pitcher to lead the majors in ERA four straight years. Verlander has been better in the postseason but Kershaw has been MILES better in the regular.
again, ERA not the only component. Pitching in different leagues definitely attributes to most of that difference. Verlander has pitched the equivalent of almost 4 more seasons, and won over 50+ more games, so he's done it over a longer period of time. Doesn't that count for anything? If I told you as a GM that you could have your choice of two aces who pitched at almost the same level, but one would pitch for 4 more years, who would you take.
No, it doesn't. Kershaw's ERA is 0.89 runs per game better than Verlander's, and the AL scores, on average, 0.2 runs per game more than the NL (it was only 0.1 this year). Kershaw's career RAA (runs better than average) is 400, Verlander's is 392. And that is despite Verlander pitching 4 more seasons and 700 more innings. Verlander is a great pitcher; Kershaw is the greatest pitcher of his generation.
Oh, come on. This only works as an argument once their careers are over. Verlander is 36, Kershaw is 31. Unless as a GM I'm also being told that Kershaw would be done at 31, I would definitely take Kershaw. Compare Kershaw's stats to Verlander's when Verlander had pitched 12 seasons and you'll see how clear the difference is.
You are correct, but pitching longer, and worser, doesn't help your case. Verlander is 5 years older, so he should have more games and innings pitched. Games won is a horrible way to compare pitchers though.
They both win 17 games a year but Velander loses 10 while Kershaw loses 7.
ERA is really all you need to know in this case, and Kershaw's is a full run a game (.89 to be exact) lower. That's A LOT. Both pitchers toss the exact same number of innings, on average per year. Both pitchers pitch the exact same number of innings, on average per start.
The DH does make it tougher when comparing the two, but it's not like Kershaw was always pitching against 8 guys and a pitcher.
The game has (d)evolved so that you are facing a pinch hitter a lot more often in the NL. That tips the scale back a bit. With starting pitchers lasting 5(?) innings they are getting 1-2 AB per game, not 4-5. Kershaw gets 1.9 AB per game and his average start is about 6 2/3 innings. It's safe to say Kershaw faces the opposing pitcher only once a game, twice at the most.
The DH's are also not always a HOFer.
Two guys; Jim Thome and David Ortiz hit Verlander pretty hard with OPS' of 1.136 and 1.026. Other than that?
Your argument is that the DH's are worth a full run per game more than a starting pitcher who bats 1 time a game and a pinch hitter/s or position player/s that gets moved to the pitchers spot in the rotation and bat 3 times? How often do relievers come to bat in the NL? Almost never. In 2016 the entire pitching staff on LA had 318 PA in 162 games 1.9 per game.
Verlander was not in the top ten in ERA in his league 50% of the time, winning 1 Cy Young award, with a good argument for another in 2012.
Kershaw was #1 in his league in ERA 50% of the time and won 3 Cy Young's, with good claims to being the best in both 2012 and 2017.
Unless someone like skin, dallas, keets, tabe or another math/numbers guy can come up with some believable stats indicating it's a full run per game harder to pitch in the AL.........................I probably still wont be convinced!
;-)
Have a great weekend, it snowed here in Minnesota!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
regular season only matters with respect to getting into the playoffs , from a fan's perspective of course.
Is it safe to presume no one here owns a baseball team? Who here owns a team ? Raise your hand!
Why does a viewer care about ERA ? I might like to see no hitters , 20 strike out games etc from a pitcher. I don't care about wins , they don't matter now when there could be 8 pitchers for each team in a single game.
Mental masturbation , no one watches every game in the regular season, its impossible unless you are a house plant in a pot right in front of a TV that has the required 3 different cable packages.
The whole regular season is there to get my team to the world series , why do I want , on my team, a guy that chokes in the real games? That starter is only playing every 4 days , how does his ERA help the team the other 3 days ? 3 days is enough to exit the playoffs . Kershaw gags in game one he may be done for the year along with the rest of the team.
Random pitcher #7's era could be the best ever recorded , his team misses the playoffs its a failure. Regardless it has no effect on my life , unless my team wins the world series and I am arrested in the riot for tipping over a bus its like another tree falling in the forest no one heard.
The sport is dying and stat weenies are the killer
The innings do count for something. Verlander has twelve seasons where he threw over 200 innings, leading the league four times. Kershaw has five years over 200 and led the league once, and doubtful he will ever have another.
Best ERA+ seasons, and IP for that year. Then their runs saved above replacement for that year
Verlander.......Kershaw............Runs above replacement
179(223IP).......197(198IP)......Verlander 81.....Kershaw 61
172(251IP).......194(236IP......Verlander 81......Kershaw 66
164(214IP).......179(175IP)......Verlander 62....Kershaw 47
161(238IP).......173(232IP).....Verlander 74.....Kershaw 54
140(227IP).......161(233IP).....Verlander 69....Kershaw 60
131(240IP)......150(227IP)......Verlander 59.....Kershaw 60
Those are their six best seasons each, and it isn't far fetched at all to call that a draw when they are at the top of their game.
Granted, the runs saved above replacement try to take into account the defensive contribution, which can skew things. Those runs saved are the basis of WAR, which Verlander currently has the lead career wise vs Kershaw 71 to 68.
WAR has problems for sure, but as a ballpark estimate, it does show them neck and neck....and of course the jury is still out since they are both still playing.
Everyone going on about the post season, remember....
The regular season is basically the first round of the post season. You need to excel there to get to the second round.
162 games in the first round. Five games in the second round. Think about that for a minute.
As for Kershaw this season...that game is almost entirely on Dave Roberts shoulders. Kershaw is clearly not the pitcher he once was, and should not have been treated as such at that point of the game. Roberts had his closer available to pitch, and that should have been his time. Instead, he didn't even use his closer until the game was over.
Kershaw has certainly pitched well enough in several post seasons for his teams to win. He pitched bad in some too. However, it is a team game, and some guys are fortunate that when they pitch well, that the other players on their team also play well...and they win a championship. It doesn't always work out like that for others, and that is where luck and chance certainly play such a large role....especially in the game of baseball where the best player in the league is a non factor in several games a year since they go hitless. That is unique to baseball.
Some guys also play terribly in the post season and their teams win despite of them. Reggie Jackson is MR. October, and the A's advanced to the World Series despite three awful ALCS performances by Jackson. He was lucky he even got a chance to play in the WS where he did perform well and the team did too. His team carried him in the ALCS to get there. Kershaw didn't have that luxury as his manager first and foremost blew it for them this season...as well as his hitters not doing the job either.
162 game first round
, thats awful . disband this garbage league yesterday.
81 game season , 6 innings long games , disband half the teams . Still won't add fans
It's OVAH !
Thanks for the input.
Looks like ERA+ is a clean sweep for Kershaw and 2016 is not in there ( assuming because of only 21 starts), but that was a pretty awesome 21 starts. Is it fair to pretend that year doesn't mean_ anything_?
I did mention that Verlander had 6 seasons where he was not in the top 10 in era, and Kershaw has only 2. Looking at their top 6 seasons will make Verlander a much better pitcher when comparing the two.
Try looking at their 6 worst seasons, I'll bet that tells a REALLY different story.
Innings pitched keeps coming up but in order for them to be equal Kershaw would have had to be in the majors at 17.
Everyone(?) also is assuming that Kershaw is done, but what do you think they were saying in Detroit in 2017?
Joebanzi ,
Verlander had a couple stinkers in the middle of his career, no doubt, and that hurts his case too.
I don't think Kershaw is done. His days of dominance are though. His ERA was a 'lucky' 3.03 this year. Looking at his peripherals, unless he gets an uptick in Velocity or adds a more effective arsenal of pitches...I would say look for mid three's in his ERA next year at best.
He's young enough, so unless he quits to enjoy his millions, he should have a few more years.
I haven't seen him throw one single pitch, and might not ever see him, but he could bounce back and have a couple of very good years. I see he has back issues, that's not good.
Verlander did it, or he wouldn't even be in the conversation. In 2014, he allowed the most earned runs in the American League. The next year, time on the DL limited him to 20 starts.
I am more concerned with who the Twins are going to have as starters other than Berrios next year. I am worried that they are headed for a disaster. In fact if there's one thing I would bet on is, ownership won't go after any top starting pitchers.