@Zoins said:
It's always an option to write one's state reps and ask for a coin exemption, like Illinois has.
The other thing I'm wondering is if this will incentivize more sellers to create their own websites, like using Shopify, to get around needing to collect taxes.
Would you buy a $1000 coin from a website run by someone you've never heard of? How would you even find the website? eBay still has eyeballs. Hard to reproduce that.
I have bought from new sites successfully. Paypal is your friend.
@Zoins said:
It's always an option to write one's state reps and ask for a coin exemption, like Illinois has.
The other thing I'm wondering is if this will incentivize more sellers to create their own websites, like using Shopify, to get around needing to collect taxes.
Would you buy a $1000 coin from a website run by someone you've never heard of? How would you even find the website? eBay still has eyeballs. Hard to reproduce that.
Yes, I would purchase with a credit card. Using a credit card pretty much guarantees you consumer protection and that is why so many people prefer to use credit cards over checks/cash/wire. If you never receive the item or receive the wrong item, you can have your credit card company dispute the charge...
I agree that credit cards and PayPal provide great protection for online services. There's really no reason to avoid paying on a new website. I do this quite a bit.
@jmlanzaf said:
Is that legal in NY State? It was my understanding that you could offer a cash discount but not a credit penalty. Or maybe they've changed that.
No matter, I've been forced to do electronic transfers ever since I registered my resale certificate.
That depends upon the agreement between the merchant and the CC provider which may or may not be state regulated. I believe that Government entities are exempted. Some places that I've dealt with that are in low margin sales will build the fee into their price and offer the discount at checkout.
@Zoins said:
It's always an option to write one's state reps and ask for a coin exemption, like Illinois has.
The other thing I'm wondering is if this will incentivize more sellers to create their own websites, like using Shopify, to get around needing to collect taxes.
Would you buy a $1000 coin from a website run by someone you've never heard of? How would you even find the website? eBay still has eyeballs. Hard to reproduce that.
Yes, I would purchase with a credit card. Using a credit card pretty much guarantees you consumer protection and that is why so many people prefer to use credit cards over checks/cash/wire. If you never receive the item or receive the wrong item, you can have your credit card company dispute the charge...
~~~~
I would also. But there are a whole lot of people around here more paranoid than I am. LOL
I would think Heritage could get a better rate than 2.5% on their merchant account. Mine is under 2.5%.
They may well be able to, but if they can charge 2.5%, they keep the difference. PayPal charges 2.9% and is certainly paying well below that. Everything left is profit.
This is not exactly the same thing. PayPal is a payment processor, much like the CC company.
Fair point, and I probably didn't write exactly what I meant. My point is that by doing a lot of volume, Heritage (like PayPal) can secure reduced rates. Because there's a general rate that people are familiar with (around 3%), it's an accepted number. If Heritage were to say they were going to charge 10%, everyone would cry foul that clearly they're gouging to make an extra profit. But at 2.5%, there's at least a basis to say they're just trying to cover costs because those costs, to the public, are around 3%.
My point about PayPal is that even if they pay a fraction of that 2.9%, people expect to pay around 3%, so the fee seems fair/in line with the market. Of course, their business is one that helps set the market rates.
And just in case it's not clear, I'm not saying I like this move by Heritage, especially where I think they're making an extra profit, just trying to get in their head and think up an explanation for what they're doing. I've certainly long been a critic of their exorbitant shipping costs.
Next they'll be charging us money to look at the auction archives. I gave up with Heritage after they charged me $20 to ship one item by Smartpost..the slowest shipping method known to man. Sent them an unhappy email saying it was absolutely obsurd. They offered a shipping refund. I didn't even bother to reply back. Awful.
I'm not certain of this, but I have long understood that Heritage wouldn't accept a cc for larger amounts. I've used wire transfer for years. If I'm correct, perhaps now they allow use of a cc for larger amounts (??).
@BryceM said:
I haven’t been newly active in the hobby for all that long - 6 or 7 years at the most. During that time Heritage has gone from one of my favorite ways to acquire coins to one of my least favored ways. I don’t begrudge any person or business the opportunity to make a fair profit, but the major auction houses have gotten greedy to the point that I’d prefer to do business elsewhere.
I’m confused by the above comment, since as a buyer, I take into account the 20% buyers premium. So if I’m willing to pay $1,000 for a coin, I’ll place a maximum bid of only around $825 or so. In reality, it’s not the buyer, but it’s the seller that’s getting hit with that 20% buyers premium! Yes, the buyer now will get hit with the 2.5% credit card fee if not paying by eCheck, along with shipping, but don’t lump in the 20% bp to the buyer, as it’s really getting paid by the seller with a reduced hammer price adjusted for that bp.
They probably do get low rates for CC processing but rewards cards are always at a higher rate so if they are going to charge for CC 2.5% is probably a fair average rate. I won't be using a CC with them.
A little off topic but I am wondering what effect the ever increasing fees will have on the coin market long term. Seems like a lot of money that used to go into coins is now leaving the market in form of fees. I'm not starting an opinion I am just curious.
@tyler267 said:
A little off topic but I am wondering what effect the ever increasing fees will have on the coin market long term. Seems like a lot of money that used to go into coins is now leaving the market in form of fees. I'm not starting an opinion I am just curious.
Get ready for the stream of opinions that ultimately leads to the closing of the thread...
@tyler267 said:
A little off topic but I am wondering what effect the ever increasing fees will have on the coin market long term. Seems like a lot of money that used to go into coins is now leaving the market in form of fees. I'm not starting an opinion I am just curious.
It is too complicated an equation for anyone to solve. Fees by themselves don't necessarily have any affect if they lead to added value that is valued equally or more highly. Consider:
You buy a VF SDB cent. You spend $40 to get it in a PCGS slab. You still only have a VF SDB cent. Is that $40 lost to fees or $40 that enhanced the value of the coin by certifying its authenticity?
Similarly, if there is a 20% BP at Heritage that isn't necessarily money lost to fees if it creates a sale price higher than would otherwise be the case.
It is, in fact, a mistake to focus only on fees. Consider eBay/PayPal fees. Now, you can claim that there is 10% being sucked out of the market. On the other hand, the existence of eBay as a platform has made all kinds of goods (not just coins) available to people who otherwise wouldn't have seen them. Further, eBay has made it possible for people to create part-time businesses that they couldn't have without the eyeballs and services eBay provides.
Fees are only an issue IF IF IF the fees are higher than the value created. And, frankly, the market will pretty much take care of that. When fees reach a level beyond the value created, people will stop using the service.
@jmlanzaf said:
Similarly, if there is a 20% BP at Heritage that isn't necessarily money lost to fees if it creates a sale price higher than would otherwise be the case.
This is a point that's poorly understood. Lots of people appear to believe there is just one correct price for every coin and any variance from that is an indication that the seller is either trying to rip you off or he doesn't understand what he has and he's giving the coin away. Either of those could be true, but the reality is that coins have many correct prices. What those prices are depends on lots of things, including (but not limited to) where and when the coins are being offered, and to whom.
@jmlanzaf said:
Similarly, if there is a 20% BP at Heritage that isn't necessarily money lost to fees if it creates a sale price higher than would otherwise be the case.
This is a point that's poorly understood. Lots of people appear to believe there is just one correct price for every coin and any variance from that is an indication that the seller is either trying to rip you off or he doesn't understand what he has and he's giving the coin away. Either of those could be true, but the reality is that coins have many correct prices. What those prices are depends on lots of things, including (but not limited to) where and when the coins are being offered, and to whom.
Yes. And I think people end up costing themselves money. BST has zero fees but BST does not seem to me to be a retail venue in terms of price for most items. I've offered items, including bullion, there at 4% above wholesale (to cover PP and shipping) with no takers. But by focusing on the fees paid rather than the price realized, they could be costing themselves money.
The problem is, it is very hard for an amateur to know they have even lost money because, as you say "coins have many correct prices". So you might get an acceptable number from BST or GC and you are "happy" with it, but it's because you don't know what it might have sold at in a Heritage or Stack's auction. Is Heritage/Stack's 10-20% higher than GC in prices realized? In some market segments, I think so. And the better dealers know with much higher certainty [than me] what the best venue is for each coin.
Just this weekend, I was looking through some slabs at the local B&M. The owner wanted to see if I wanted any. Now, I'm mostly an eBay guy. As we were talking, we ended up with 3 piles: better with me (eBay), better at Stack's, better at Heritage. And the stuff that wasn't in the discussion was essentially a 4th pile: better at the B&M. And, yes, we both know exactly the cost of placement at all 4 places.
These recent comments are all very good points, and I think Heritage arguably does better than anyone else at presenting a quality product (photos, catalogs, descriptions, consistency, customer service, etc.) to a large audience. All of that offers value to the consignor at sale time. Certainly GC and Legend do it well too (coins that find themselves in Legend auctions often do quite well), but on a smaller scale or in niche areas.
I offer a single data point that for myself, Heritage has made business decisions that turn me off. I still buy from them, but with less enthusiasm than before.
@BryceM said:
These recent comments are all very good points, and I think Heritage arguably does better than anyone else at presenting a quality product (photos, catalogs, descriptions, consistency, customer service, etc.) to a large audience. All of that offers value to the consignor at sale time. Certainly GC and Legend do it well too (coins that find themselves in Legend auctions often do quite well), but on a smaller scale or in niche areas.
I offer a single data point that for myself, Heritage has made business decisions that turn me off. I still buy from them, but with less enthusiasm than before.
I like Heritage. I also don't think they are perfect.
@tyler267 said:
A little off topic but I am wondering what effect the ever increasing fees will have on the coin market long term. Seems like a lot of money that used to go into coins is now leaving the market in form of fees. I'm not starting an opinion I am just curious.
200 year old coins don't care who owns them or how they are transacted. They will always change hands, but the speed and cost of the transaction will always change.
I bought a handful of coins from the Newman auction about 7 years ago. Each had a small envelope that noted his cost and grade opinion. I paid 100 times more than he did for a proof half dime, perhaps 6 decades later.
I thought about the factors that brought about such an increase. Third party grading and inexpensive internet collector to collector trading certainly played in to the equation.
That coin is worth a bit more than half of what I paid now (fortunately I got out with a minimal loss.)
I look to grade inflation as a reason. Transaction cost hikes throw cold water on the market as well. The crusty old retail coin dealer of our youth that adjusted his half frame glasses as he grudgingly offered 50 cents on the dollar for our collection are now becoming competitive with the auctioneer that charges a 5% sellers fee, a 20% buyers fee, up to 4% shipping and 2.5% for the privilege of paying with a CC. Add on the mandatory sales 8% taxes where required and picking state quarters out of pocket change once again looks attractive.
Save those fees and book your flight/hotel to Orlando for the FUN! I too have found better prices at coin shows compared to online and I'm sold on the idea of 'coin in hand' as the most important gauge. I used to buy mostly online, including at Heritage, but I now save my coin money for FUN.
@matt_dac said:
Save those fees and book your flight/hotel to Orlando for the FUN! I too have found better prices at coin shows compared to online and I'm sold on the idea of 'coin in hand' as the most important gauge. I used to buy mostly online, including at Heritage, but I now save my coin money for FUN.
Because a flight and a hotel don't count as fees...
And then there's the table fees, the dealer's flight and hotel, the dealer's profit margin.
There's just as many fees at a coin show, Heritage just has them spelled out for you.
@matt_dac said:
Save those fees and book your flight/hotel to Orlando for the FUN! I too have found better prices at coin shows compared to online and I'm sold on the idea of 'coin in hand' as the most important gauge. I used to buy mostly online, including at Heritage, but I now save my coin money for FUN.
Because a flight and a hotel don't count as fees...
And then there's the table fees, the dealer's flight and hotel, the dealer's profit margin.
There's just as many fees at a coin show, Heritage just has them spelled out for you.
Getting away from the wife for 4 days...priceless.
@matt_dac said:
Save those fees and book your flight/hotel to Orlando for the FUN! I too have found better prices at coin shows compared to online and I'm sold on the idea of 'coin in hand' as the most important gauge. I used to buy mostly online, including at Heritage, but I now save my coin money for FUN.
Because a flight and a hotel don't count as fees...
And then there's the table fees, the dealer's flight and hotel, the dealer's profit margin.
There's just as many fees at a coin show, Heritage just has them spelled out for you.
Getting away from the wife for 4 days...priceless.
@matt_dac said:
Save those fees and book your flight/hotel to Orlando for the FUN! I too have found better prices at coin shows compared to online and I'm sold on the idea of 'coin in hand' as the most important gauge. I used to buy mostly online, including at Heritage, but I now save my coin money for FUN.
Because a flight and a hotel don't count as fees...
And then there's the table fees, the dealer's flight and hotel, the dealer's profit margin.
There's just as many fees at a coin show, Heritage just has them spelled out for you.
Mine is from the standpoint of a buyer (not a dealer) but I think a few days in Orlando might be a better 'value' even if the same cost.
I question how travel and dealer costs would compare if the same $$ in coins sold online with typical fees?
BOURSE TABLE PRICING:All single bourse tables in the main section and foreign & ancient section are $750.00, and all corner bourse tables are $1,300.00. All budget section single bourse tables are $450.00 and all corner budget section tables are $800.00.<
@matt_dac said:
Save those fees and book your flight/hotel to Orlando for the FUN! I too have found better prices at coin shows compared to online and I'm sold on the idea of 'coin in hand' as the most important gauge. I used to buy mostly online, including at Heritage, but I now save my coin money for FUN.
Because a flight and a hotel don't count as fees...
And then there's the table fees, the dealer's flight and hotel, the dealer's profit margin.
There's just as many fees at a coin show, Heritage just has them spelled out for you.
Mine is from the standpoint of a buyer (not a dealer) but I think a few days in Orlando might be a better 'value' even if the same cost.
I question how travel and dealer costs would compare if the same $$ in coins sold online with typical fees?
BOURSE TABLE PRICING:All single bourse tables in the main section and foreign & ancient section are $750.00, and all corner bourse tables are $1,300.00. All budget section single bourse tables are $450.00 and all corner budget section tables are $800.00.<
Depends on the dealer. But one of these things can't be true:
Don't sell it to a dealer, you can do better on GC (total fees at 15%).
Only buy from a dealer, his margin is lower than 20%
The calculation really depends on the dealer. The average dealer margin is probably less than 20%. In part, that's because of some really low margin bullion-y things in the mix.
But, see my post above, there is also value to shopping at Heritage that is hard to match with a bunch of random dealers. Now, FUN is a big show. But there is a lot of material that goes through Heritage that you would have a hard time finding on a bourse floor. And, there's also some cost advantages for travel costs etc.
If I flew to Florida for a couple days for FUN, it's going to cost me $500 to $1000. That means I need to spend $2500 to $5000 on the floor to be even remotely similar to paying Heritage 20% for the privilege of shopping from home. I can also go to a Heritage auction several times per week instead of twice per year.
Not that I"m arguing against coin shows. They are great fun and usually worth attending. But every venue has its place...
@BryceM said:
These recent comments are all very good points, and I think Heritage arguably does better than anyone else at presenting a quality product (photos, catalogs, descriptions, consistency, customer service, etc.) to a large audience. All of that offers value to the consignor at sale time. Certainly GC and Legend do it well too (coins that find themselves in Legend auctions often do quite well), but on a smaller scale or in niche areas.
I offer a single data point that for myself, Heritage has made business decisions that turn me off. I still buy from them, but with less enthusiasm than before.
Great post. I will still buy and sell with them at the same enthusiasm. Nothing has really changed for me.
Interesting poll on another one of our U.S. Coin Forums:
Poll for wealthy coin collectors 36 votes
An Investment First (Won't buy a coin if loss or break-even is likely)
19% 7 votes
A Hobby First (Will buy an expensive coin because I like it, regardless of market)
80% 29 votes
@BryceM said:
These recent comments are all very good points, and I think Heritage arguably does better than anyone else at presenting a quality product (photos, catalogs, descriptions, consistency, customer service, etc.) to a large audience. All of that offers value to the consignor at sale time. Certainly GC and Legend do it well too (coins that find themselves in Legend auctions often do quite well), but on a smaller scale or in niche areas.
I offer a single data point that for myself, Heritage has made business decisions that turn me off. I still buy from them, but with less enthusiasm than before.
I like Heritage. I also don't think they are perfect.
I still like Heritage because they are one of the few sources for what I collect and in larger volume. This is an inconvenience but the foreign auction houses I buy from have been doing the same thing for years. It still doesn't change my bids, but then this is because I'm not spending big money and I want the coin badly enough.
@DisneyFan said:
Interesting poll on another one of our U.S. Coin Forums:
Poll for wealthy coin collectors 36 votes
An Investment First (Won't buy a coin if loss or break-even is likely)
19% 7 votes
A Hobby First (Will buy an expensive coin because I like it, regardless of market)
80% 29 votes
Looks like fees don't matter after all?
Fees should NEVER matter unless you can't afford a dollar store calculator. If you pay more than you want to pay, it's on you. No one forces the bid. The fees aren't hidden. Give me an auction with 100% BP, I'll just cut my price in half and bid that.
@DisneyFan said:
Interesting poll on another one of our U.S. Coin Forums:
Poll for wealthy coin collectors 36 votes
An Investment First (Won't buy a coin if loss or break-even is likely)
19% 7 votes
A Hobby First (Will buy an expensive coin because I like it, regardless of market)
80% 29 votes
Looks like fees don't matter after all?
Give me an auction with 100% BP, I'll just cut my price in half and bid that.
It would make bidding easier. At high speed live auctions...the add ons are numbing
Wonder if this is connected to the new software adjustment for the credit card upcharge.
"""We are experiencing a technical outage that is taking longer than expected to restore. We realize that open auctions are being delayed, and we will repost them and extend them so that everyone can participate. We will notify all consignors and all bidders as soon as we can. Thank you very much for your patience. We are unable to respond to emails at this time, but will do so as soon as possible."""
@jclovescoins said:
Ridiculous...as if the huge buyer's premium is not enough...
My sentiments exactly. Add in the bloated shipping fees, slow shipping, and inconsistent quality pics IMO, and I'm pretty much done with Heritage. I think Great Collections blows them out of the water anyway.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
Comments
I have bought from new sites successfully. Paypal is your friend.
Yes, I would purchase with a credit card. Using a credit card pretty much guarantees you consumer protection and that is why so many people prefer to use credit cards over checks/cash/wire. If you never receive the item or receive the wrong item, you can have your credit card company dispute the charge...
Good points @Coinstartled and @ShadyDave.
I agree that credit cards and PayPal provide great protection for online services. There's really no reason to avoid paying on a new website. I do this quite a bit.
Yep. Ridiculous and that's a cost you'd want to recover upon resale.
That depends upon the agreement between the merchant and the CC provider which may or may not be state regulated. I believe that Government entities are exempted. Some places that I've dealt with that are in low margin sales will build the fee into their price and offer the discount at checkout.
They do for ppff.
~~~~
I would also. But there are a whole lot of people around here more paranoid than I am. LOL
Fair point, and I probably didn't write exactly what I meant. My point is that by doing a lot of volume, Heritage (like PayPal) can secure reduced rates. Because there's a general rate that people are familiar with (around 3%), it's an accepted number. If Heritage were to say they were going to charge 10%, everyone would cry foul that clearly they're gouging to make an extra profit. But at 2.5%, there's at least a basis to say they're just trying to cover costs because those costs, to the public, are around 3%.
My point about PayPal is that even if they pay a fraction of that 2.9%, people expect to pay around 3%, so the fee seems fair/in line with the market. Of course, their business is one that helps set the market rates.
And just in case it's not clear, I'm not saying I like this move by Heritage, especially where I think they're making an extra profit, just trying to get in their head and think up an explanation for what they're doing. I've certainly long been a critic of their exorbitant shipping costs.
Next they'll be charging us money to look at the auction archives. I gave up with Heritage after they charged me $20 to ship one item by Smartpost..the slowest shipping method known to man. Sent them an unhappy email saying it was absolutely obsurd. They offered a shipping refund. I didn't even bother to reply back. Awful.
"The cheaper coin is the coin with the lowest total price tag."....I totally agree with you.
Here in Canada, 9 times out of ten, it's at a coin show, not at auction.
Our Canadian coin auction start the bidding at 50% of trends, add on 15% (at least) buyer's fee, add on any shipping and add on 13% HST (tax).
No thanks!
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
I'm not certain of this, but I have long understood that Heritage wouldn't accept a cc for larger amounts. I've used wire transfer for years. If I'm correct, perhaps now they allow use of a cc for larger amounts (??).
All buyers become sellers, eventually.
They probably do get low rates for CC processing but rewards cards are always at a higher rate so if they are going to charge for CC 2.5% is probably a fair average rate. I won't be using a CC with them.
A little off topic but I am wondering what effect the ever increasing fees will have on the coin market long term. Seems like a lot of money that used to go into coins is now leaving the market in form of fees. I'm not starting an opinion I am just curious.
Get ready for the stream of opinions that ultimately leads to the closing of the thread...
It is too complicated an equation for anyone to solve. Fees by themselves don't necessarily have any affect if they lead to added value that is valued equally or more highly. Consider:
You buy a VF SDB cent. You spend $40 to get it in a PCGS slab. You still only have a VF SDB cent. Is that $40 lost to fees or $40 that enhanced the value of the coin by certifying its authenticity?
Similarly, if there is a 20% BP at Heritage that isn't necessarily money lost to fees if it creates a sale price higher than would otherwise be the case.
It is, in fact, a mistake to focus only on fees. Consider eBay/PayPal fees. Now, you can claim that there is 10% being sucked out of the market. On the other hand, the existence of eBay as a platform has made all kinds of goods (not just coins) available to people who otherwise wouldn't have seen them. Further, eBay has made it possible for people to create part-time businesses that they couldn't have without the eyeballs and services eBay provides.
Fees are only an issue IF IF IF the fees are higher than the value created. And, frankly, the market will pretty much take care of that. When fees reach a level beyond the value created, people will stop using the service.
This is a point that's poorly understood. Lots of people appear to believe there is just one correct price for every coin and any variance from that is an indication that the seller is either trying to rip you off or he doesn't understand what he has and he's giving the coin away. Either of those could be true, but the reality is that coins have many correct prices. What those prices are depends on lots of things, including (but not limited to) where and when the coins are being offered, and to whom.
Yes. And I think people end up costing themselves money. BST has zero fees but BST does not seem to me to be a retail venue in terms of price for most items. I've offered items, including bullion, there at 4% above wholesale (to cover PP and shipping) with no takers. But by focusing on the fees paid rather than the price realized, they could be costing themselves money.
The problem is, it is very hard for an amateur to know they have even lost money because, as you say "coins have many correct prices". So you might get an acceptable number from BST or GC and you are "happy" with it, but it's because you don't know what it might have sold at in a Heritage or Stack's auction. Is Heritage/Stack's 10-20% higher than GC in prices realized? In some market segments, I think so. And the better dealers know with much higher certainty [than me] what the best venue is for each coin.
Just this weekend, I was looking through some slabs at the local B&M. The owner wanted to see if I wanted any. Now, I'm mostly an eBay guy. As we were talking, we ended up with 3 piles: better with me (eBay), better at Stack's, better at Heritage. And the stuff that wasn't in the discussion was essentially a 4th pile: better at the B&M. And, yes, we both know exactly the cost of placement at all 4 places.
These recent comments are all very good points, and I think Heritage arguably does better than anyone else at presenting a quality product (photos, catalogs, descriptions, consistency, customer service, etc.) to a large audience. All of that offers value to the consignor at sale time. Certainly GC and Legend do it well too (coins that find themselves in Legend auctions often do quite well), but on a smaller scale or in niche areas.
I offer a single data point that for myself, Heritage has made business decisions that turn me off. I still buy from them, but with less enthusiasm than before.
We no longer collect coins, we collect fees!
I like Heritage. I also don't think they are perfect.
200 year old coins don't care who owns them or how they are transacted. They will always change hands, but the speed and cost of the transaction will always change.
I bought a handful of coins from the Newman auction about 7 years ago. Each had a small envelope that noted his cost and grade opinion. I paid 100 times more than he did for a proof half dime, perhaps 6 decades later.
I thought about the factors that brought about such an increase. Third party grading and inexpensive internet collector to collector trading certainly played in to the equation.
That coin is worth a bit more than half of what I paid now (fortunately I got out with a minimal loss.)
I look to grade inflation as a reason. Transaction cost hikes throw cold water on the market as well. The crusty old retail coin dealer of our youth that adjusted his half frame glasses as he grudgingly offered 50 cents on the dollar for our collection are now becoming competitive with the auctioneer that charges a 5% sellers fee, a 20% buyers fee, up to 4% shipping and 2.5% for the privilege of paying with a CC. Add on the mandatory sales 8% taxes where required and picking state quarters out of pocket change once again looks attractive.
Save those fees and book your flight/hotel to Orlando for the FUN!
I too have found better prices at coin shows compared to online and I'm sold on the idea of 'coin in hand' as the most important gauge. I used to buy mostly online, including at Heritage, but I now save my coin money for FUN.
Because a flight and a hotel don't count as fees...
And then there's the table fees, the dealer's flight and hotel, the dealer's profit margin.
There's just as many fees at a coin show, Heritage just has them spelled out for you.
Getting away from the wife for 4 days...priceless.
LMAO. I'm not married.
Mine is from the standpoint of a buyer (not a dealer) but I think a few days in Orlando might be a better 'value' even if the same cost.
I question how travel and dealer costs would compare if the same $$ in coins sold online with typical fees?
Depends on the dealer. But one of these things can't be true:
The calculation really depends on the dealer. The average dealer margin is probably less than 20%. In part, that's because of some really low margin bullion-y things in the mix.
But, see my post above, there is also value to shopping at Heritage that is hard to match with a bunch of random dealers. Now, FUN is a big show. But there is a lot of material that goes through Heritage that you would have a hard time finding on a bourse floor. And, there's also some cost advantages for travel costs etc.
If I flew to Florida for a couple days for FUN, it's going to cost me $500 to $1000. That means I need to spend $2500 to $5000 on the floor to be even remotely similar to paying Heritage 20% for the privilege of shopping from home. I can also go to a Heritage auction several times per week instead of twice per year.
Not that I"m arguing against coin shows. They are great fun and usually worth attending. But every venue has its place...
Great post. I will still buy and sell with them at the same enthusiasm. Nothing has really changed for me.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Interesting poll on another one of our U.S. Coin Forums:
Poll for wealthy coin collectors 36 votes
An Investment First (Won't buy a coin if loss or break-even is likely)
19% 7 votes
A Hobby First (Will buy an expensive coin because I like it, regardless of market)
80% 29 votes
Looks like fees don't matter after all?
I still like Heritage because they are one of the few sources for what I collect and in larger volume. This is an inconvenience but the foreign auction houses I buy from have been doing the same thing for years. It still doesn't change my bids, but then this is because I'm not spending big money and I want the coin badly enough.
Fees should NEVER matter unless you can't afford a dollar store calculator. If you pay more than you want to pay, it's on you. No one forces the bid. The fees aren't hidden. Give me an auction with 100% BP, I'll just cut my price in half and bid that.
It would make bidding easier. At high speed live auctions...the add ons are numbing
Wonder if this is connected to the new software adjustment for the credit card upcharge.
"""We are experiencing a technical outage that is taking longer than expected to restore. We realize that open auctions are being delayed, and we will repost them and extend them so that everyone can participate. We will notify all consignors and all bidders as soon as we can. Thank you very much for your patience. We are unable to respond to emails at this time, but will do so as soon as possible."""
My sentiments exactly. Add in the bloated shipping fees, slow shipping, and inconsistent quality pics IMO, and I'm pretty much done with Heritage. I think Great Collections blows them out of the water anyway.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.