Goodbye Cruel World!

tradedollarnut

Well, folks, it appears that a lot of people didn't read my disclaimer that this wasn't my letter and that I didn't necessarily agree with the opinions contained within. Accordingly, I have decided to withdraw the letter. If the owner of the Linda Collection should wish to repost, so be it.

littlewicher

If PCGS doesn't restructure soon, they are going to lose a lot more customers and participants.

Spooly

WOW!

goose3

well said.

Typetone

Linda Collection:

Excellent points all. Here's my take on some of them.

1. I share your concern about independence. It is difficult to believe that PCGS can avoid pressure from the dealers who own it. However, PCGS has always been dealer owned, so there may be a constancy to their bias. Understanding the bias is probably as important as anything. Short of spinning off the grading service, I don't see a way to avoid some bias. The bias works the other way as well. Since PCGS is dealer owned, dealers seem more willing to pay higher prices for PCGS coins.

2. The PCGS only policy is somewhat problematic but understandable. If PCGS coins do command a market premium then allowing NGC coins would water things down. Maybe PCGS should allow a certain but small percentage of NGC coins.

3. I share your opinion that the crossover game is political. I believe (whether right or wrong) that crossovers are difficult to get for collectors. It seems that the coin really has to be high end to cross. I have given up trying these myself. I have on occassion sent coins to dealers and had them try crossovers. A few more of those worked, but still a low %. Again the bias makes sense, as PCGS has no incentive to help NGC create a market for its coins.

4. I was not aware of the PR70 for DHRC rumor. On previous posts I have explained in detail my view on the risks of buying PR70DC moderns. IF DHRC got some 70s, I certainly didn't see them or had them offered to me. It would bother me if DH is getting them and no one else. Raises my level of caution even higher.

5. On the 33 Saint. I don't think it makes any difference what PCGS grades the coin. It is one of a kind and will trade totally on its stand alone merits. Personally, it think the entire history of this coin is questionable. I feel that even at a few million it is grossly overpriced, but who am I to argue with the market.

Greg

tradedollarnut

Again the bias makes sense, as PCGS has no incentive to help NGC create a market for its coins.

This makes me wonder - should PCGS really hate NGC as much as it does? Does Coke hate Pepsi? Or does Coke realize that if Pepsi wasn't there then Dr Pepper would be just as strong a number two. Or worse, if Pepsi wasn't there then the Feds would be looking to break Coke up!

If NGC didn't exist, then wouldn't Anacs or ICG or some other service just jump right in and be just as strong a competitor as NGC? Without NGC to grade coins (actually spending some time on them to assign a grade) then wouldn't PCGS need somebody else to be a half a grade lower to play off of? It just makes me wonder if PCGS really should be as negative about NGC as they are - or if they should spend their energy more wisely on other things.

Bear

Linda Collection - While I agree that all is not perfect in the world of collecting, I have learned to accept the bad along with the good. PCGS is by no means perfect and without fault, but the changes its inovations have brought about, seem to have done more that is good to the hobby then evil. As such, I believe you are taking an excessively dour and negetive outlook on the world as it is. I hope that a good nights sleep, a good meal and the purchase of a nice coin or two will brighten your day. Bear

EVillageProwler

Something TDN wrote reminds me of a MS vs Apple situation several years ago. I don't remember the details anymore, but Apple, at the time, was in some sort of a serious financial situation. Bill Gates announced that Microsoft would help Apple -- I forget exactly how -- with the expressed reason that MS would have been unable to take up the slack caused by Apple's departure, and thus hurting MS.

EVP

EVillageProwler

BTW, Bear, the Linda Collections are over in NGC-land. Maybe he's quite content to list his sets only at one site?

Personally, I think it's fine what he did. In a market economy, if I'm unhappy with a particular vendor, I'll simply go to his competitor. It's all about choice.

EVP

nwcs

>but Apple, at the time, was in some sort of a serious financial situation. Bill Gates announced that Microsoft would help Apple -- I forget exactly how -- with the expressed reason that MS would have been

They bought $150 million in stock and pledged their support to build the next version of Office for Mac. They also pledged some other things that translated into monies. But I think the motivation of Gates was that it would delay a lawsuit from the Dept. of Justice because it would appear that Microsoft is helping the competition instead of snuffing them out as they usually do.

Neil

wondercoin

"4. I was not aware of the PR70 for DHRC rumor. On previous posts I have explained in detail my view on the risks of buying PR70DC moderns. IF DHRC got some 70s, I certainly didn't see them or had them offered to me. It would bother me if DH is getting them and no one else. Raises my level of caution even higher."

Greg: I thought this issue was resolved with an understanding that DHRC actually BUYS these PR70 coins in the open market (as many of us do). I asked TDN to see if he could get some backup information from the author of that letter on whether this is what is being raised again. I suspect TDN believes that DHRC is actually buying them on the open market, which is why TDN added a disclaimer at the beginning of his post. Wondercoin.

Typetone

Mitch:

I don't see a large increase in the PR70 pop. Does anyone else? Does DH have 70DC material posted on his page?

Greg

Just did a quick search and didn't see any 70DCAM material on the DHRC site.

tradedollarnut

I believe that section of his letter pertained to a thread a month or so ago about a large submission receiving an inordinate amount of PF70s and then the coins ended up on DHRC's website.

I'm certain DHRC was not the submitter. But which comes first - the chicken or the egg? Are suppliers to DHRC are the only ones receiving the grades or does DHRC simply have an advantage in buying the coins because they know who made them? Or do they pay the highest prices since they have huge demand? Either way, they ended up with them.

Keyrock

I'm starting to get that queazy feeling. Between PCGS, NGC and the Mint, I think I need to stop/slowdown collecting for a few months.

tjkillian

I'm just really surprised the that PCGS does not appear to be more concerned with the collectors here. I, too, am frustrated by the crackout/cross-over game. Why don't they listen? Money causes the world to turn and would they not make more of it if they listened?

Tom

cosmicdebris

If PCGS had to change one thing it would be: Change the wording from Finest Collections to Finest Registered PCGS Slabbed Collections.

littlewicher

BJ, Carol, we would like to hear your opinions on this issue.

WWBillman

tjkillian,



<< <i>I'm just really surprised the that PCGS does not appear to be more concerned with the collectors here. I, too, am frustrated by the crackout/cross-over game. Why don't they listen? Money causes the world to turn and would they not make more of it if they listened? >>


What do you mean by that statement? How would you like them to show concern? By crossing all the NGC coins you submit?

SO WHAT if they are or are not bias on crossing NGC coins.

Everyone wants to blame the low percentage of NGC crossovers on the NGC holder implying if it was not slabed by NGC it would grade the same at PCGS. IF PCGS is bias and you feel the only reason it won't cross is because it is in an NGC holder and you are confident it is properly graded by NGC, crack it out and submit it raw. If the coin comes back with the same grade that was given it by NGC or better you win. If it comes back with a lower grade you can't exactly blame it on their bias against NGC anymore now can you? Then who or what are you going to blame?

Only if PCGS starts asking the the coin owner what grade they want and giving it to them will everyone be happy but then they might as well change their name to Acugrade 2.

Bill

pontiacinf

I am ohhhhhhhhhhh sooooooooooo glad you all have the will, the mind and the mouth to speak up. Ive always tryed to point out certain things, but im in no way a nuismatic exoert.

Im glad to be part of a bunch who can do so for me...love you guys...

JJacks

I for one actually think that only PCGS graded coins should be allowed in the Registry. Otherwise there are several problems:

1. Who else do you allow? Why does everyone assume they should allow NGC coins, but for example not ANACS, or SEGS, or even the often strickly graded PCI Green label coins? The registry in some areas such as some modern proof issues could be a joke of different slabs all over the place. How can you justify allowing only PCGS and NGC coins? Someone who has a bunch of ICG will then start to complain.

2. Why should someone who has say an all PR69CAM PCGS Set be beat out by another guy who has one in PR70CAM from another service? Let that person go to the other service's registry! What, they don't have a registry? Oh, gee!

Please PCGS, don't change the policy of only allowing PCGS coins in the Registry!

BTW, I also like the PCGS boxes! If you have a bunch of NGC coins, please buy their boxes!

JJacks

EVillageProwler

BTW, I also like the PCGS boxes! If you have a bunch of NGC coins, please buy their boxes!

You've GOT to be kidding... Just about EVERY PCGS box I've ever had was off by just enough that it was hard to close tightly -- even with NO coins in 'em. Oftentimes, they wouldn't fit the width of a PCGS slab.

I know that this is a really small matter, but I really find their boxes to be of very shoddy workmanship.

Of course, this has no bearing on how they are as a grading service...

EVP

JJacks

EVP, that must happen when they have to be shipped so far!

Seriously, I do actually like their boxes.

I was contemplating several other issues about "Should PCGS allow NGC coins in their Registry?".

I still feel the answer is a Resounding "NO".

Reasons other then the ones I already mentioned:

1. PCGS has no control over NGC. If at any point NGC were to loosen up their grading standards considerably, it would hurt the PCGS Registry dramatically. It would be like Microsoft trying to be technical support for all software ever made for MS Windows. People could start registering MS67 Morgans that are really MS65. I am not saying NGC will ever do this, but one business can never trust another one not to change.

2. The PCGS Registry currenly allows you to simply enter a serial #, and instantly add your coin. To allow this with NGC coins, they would at the very least need NGC's updated database, which maybe they could or maybe they couldn't get.

3. How would they score points for either positive or negative qualifiers that NGC has and PCGS doesn't, or NGC grades completely differently from PCGS? For example, would a NGC * coin be worth more? PCGS didn't rate it a star, so why should they give more points for it? What if NGC were far looser (or far tighter) on DCAM, or Full Steps or whatever? There would be no fair way to rate any NGC coin compared to a PCGS coin without PCGS grading it first.

4. Personally, I think that NGC allowing PCGS coins is very gimmicky, and was only done so that when NGC listed their list of features for their Registry they could add that. NGC has no control over PCGS either, so what would they do if PCGS ever changed their standards, even on one series dramatically? Actually, it seems to show that NGC has a ton of trust in PCGS grading standards!

JJacks

coynclecter

Let's understand the game here guys;

First: PCGS is a "for profit" business. They are not in existance to standardize grading or promote collecting

Second: Every action they take will be for the betterment of the profit line, that includes the registry, the regrade game and the screwy, inconsistant grading of moderns.

Third: They will do anything legal to screw the competition (like any other business) including, well, we all know whats going on.

Fourth: If you live by PCGS , you will die by PCGS.

Buy the coin, not the holder and don't let the quest for glory make you spend absurd amounts of money on high grade common coins just so you can "think" you have a "better than thou" collection.

EVillageProwler

Coynclecter,

You're right that PCGS, and every other service, is a for profit business. The biggest problem I have is that there's no truly independent policing of grading standards or grading quality. And, that leaves everyone else at the mercy of the ethical orientation of the individual services.

And, since 3rd-party grading is so important to the industry right now, I am very concerned...

Imagine if we had no SEC? The public would simply have to trust that the analysts at Merrill Lynch aren't hawking advice and companies to pad their own profitability. Oh, wait, that's exactly what happened to Merrill. And, they got caught and settled with the D.A. In the securities industry, they have what's known as the Chinese Wall. In the U.S. coin market, what do we have? The PNG? The ANA? LOL!

Sometimes I wish the government would get involved. Maybe that'll correct some of the ethical orientation that's become dis-oriented over the years!

EVP

IrishMike

JJacks, I find one big hole in your arguement that only PCGS coins be included in their registry, it excludes some of the finest coins that have ever been slabbed. Therefore PCGS should not label any set the finest, they should change it to the finest set of all time in PCGS slabs. Give NGC the credit for realizing what serious collectors already know, neither one of the two grading services have slabbed all of the nicest coins.

JJacks

IrishMike,

Has ICG graded any nice coins? ANACS? Why aren't these coins allowed in the NGC Registry? Are all great coins slabbed period? Of course not. NGC's solution doesn't solve anything except give PCGS coin holders 2 places to list their sets!

I actually agree that PCGS shouldn't advertise it as the best sets of all time, but the best PCGS graded sets of all time.

JJacks

EVillageProwler

JJ,

The preponderance of nice slabbed coins are done by PCGS and NGC. That NGC allows both is a recognition of that fact and also serves as a convenience for those who play the registry game.

I think your concern about one service not being able to attest to the grading standard of another (and that's why PCGS should have a PCGS-only policy) is a bit too much concern. I think if NGC is willing to mess up their standards, then PCGS is happy to let them.

I don't know for certain why CU has a PCGS-only policy, as opposed to a PCGS and NGC policy, but I'm willing to bet it's not to insulate themselves from screwy NGC grading games. Whatever their reasons, I'm willing to bet that their affirmative reasons and not defensive reasons.

EVP

JJacks

EVP,

You may be right, but wouldn't this be like a Toyota dealer automatically certifying a car that a Ford Dealer certified because they usually get it right? NGC may be accurate 99% of the time, but if someone places an key coin that was overgraded by NGC in the PCGS Registry and gets full credit for it, then what?

I checked NGC's site, and found that you get a 25% bonus for NGC coins with the "*" designation. There is no such thing on PCGS coins, therefore the playing field over there isn't completely fair either. Also, the strong majority of top coins are in PCGS/NGC holder, but why does that leave out the few in ICG/ANACS, etc holders?

JJacks

Toningintheblood

What's the old saying guys? At any party or social gathering you never talk religion or politics......I equate what I have read here before me and the varying opinions as a similar arena of thought and discussion. PCGS and NGC are like the Republicans and Democrats, both are part of our American pastime of coin collecting and politics. If you are a Republican, then all Democrats are wrong, along with their platforms and beliefs. The same goes if you are a Democrat, then a Republican can do no right! The PCGS Registry idea was their innovation and idea, why share the success with the other political party. This particular arena for idea exchange happens to be sponsored by one of the two major political parties of third party impartial grading for our hobby of coin collecting. The second major political power has their own sponsored website elsewhere, and their own promises and platforms. Different strokes for different folks....politics and coins!

IrishMike

JJacks, let's keep this thread revelant and serious, you know as well as I do what has happened to the other grading companies. At one time NGC was considered the number one grading company, now they are 1A. I have absolutely no problem with PCGS excluding all coins except the ones in their plastic. (btw please read Russ's post on the coin forum about resubmits to PCGS). My difference with them is on their listing page calling these sets and I quote them "Listing of the finest coin sets in existence today" "Listing of the finest coins sets of all time" and "How does your collection compare". You don't see the problem in that?

Edited to add: I have said this on here several times. I buy a coin because I like it and it is priced for the grade, regardless of what slab it is in, PCGS, NGC or ICG. My personal preference is to buy raw coins. To me that is the essence of true collecting, buy the coins you like.

TCiccone

I do have to say that I am not in disagreement with many of these points and this post has hit a nerve that has bothering me of recent aquisitions.

I was under the impression that certification standards were developed to maintain a level of quality and assurance for sight unseen buyers to believe that if they are buying a certified coin, they would know what to expect. I now know what to expect

"THE UNEXPECTED"!

Many coins I have purchased on the sight unseen market be it EBay, Teletrade, Heritage or what ever, have left me in dissapointment upon receipt of the coin. Sometimes it seems the accuracy of the grade is dependent upon what the grader ate for lunch or... who took the grader to lunch, if you know what I mean.

Certification creates or destroys coin value! It's that simple.

If a grade is pushed up a notch, value is created. To be in a position to be able to create value for yourself is truly a conflict of interest to the certified marketplace. I have felt many a time that a coin that I have bought sight unseen must have been originated by one of the partners or someone well liked by them. I have also received coins that have been personally submitted and have been disapointed in the grade received. You can hold two coins up side by side that are even 2 grades apart and think that the holder tags should be switched! I was told by an old dealer, that the true problems started when barcoding was initiated and it has progressively gotten worse over time, especially as demand for coins and their business volume grows.

"buy the coin and not the holder".

This is especially hard in todays sight unseen marketplace. But I can tell you the downfall of certification services will be brought on by their own actions. Misrepresentation will destroy collector confidence and in the long run hang themselves with their own rope!

TC

coynclecter

EVillageProwler:




<< <i>Sometimes I wish the government would get involved. Maybe that'll correct some of the ethical orientation that's become dis-oriented over the years! >>



Yeah, they can turn ethics management over to the mint, they've shown thier ability to put the ethics of the hobby over the profit motive.
BTW what year coins are they releasing this week??

EVillageProwler

Coynclecter,

Yeah, ok, you got me with that Mint example... Seriously, though, I was just looking for an impartial oversight organ, like the SEC.

EVP

Hoot

Linda's Daddy has asked that everyone take note: This thread was originally HIS post and not tradedollarnut's!!! He wishes to have it known that if anyone gets the flack, it is he and NOT TDN.

If you wish to read Linda's Daddy's original post, go to: Goodbye Cruel World

Thanks, Hoot

madmike

If people hate PCGS that much, why oh why do they hang out here and torment the rest of us with it?

Feel free to dislike whatever you want. If I disliked PCGS or thought they did a horrible job.... I wouldn't buy their product!

Some of us like PCGS and think they offer the best option out there. People keep harping about NGC, yet the last set of coins I sold would have sold for a third of their price in NGC holders.

No thanks.

madmike

rduval

I disagree, by PCGS allowing NGC coins they would be admitting that NGC coins are graded as properly as PCGS coins, Therefore this will never happen as PCGS see's it self as the GOD of grading services.

NGC on the other hand agree's that PCGS is at least second to their NGC grading therfore allowing PCGS coins.

From what I have seen in the market PCGS overgrades plenty of coins sumitted by dealers, but undergrades coins sumitted by individuals. A certain 1804 silver dollar comes to mind sumitted by a Individual it graded XF45 sumitted by a Dealer the same coin graded Proof 58 can only be a political decision, or a blind grader.

About ICG it is run by people who left PCGS grading service to start a better grading service without all the political influnce, the graders used to work for PCGS does that mean that when they worked for PCGS they knew how to grade but now that they have moved to ICG that they now do NOT now know how to grade??

The other grading services are spotty at best, sometimes they grade better than PCGS and sometimes they don't.

This is my opinion is to be viewed as such
Rob

EVillageProwler

If people hate PCGS that much, why oh why do they hang out here and torment the rest of us with it?

Hate is such a strong word. I'm no fan of PCGS, and frequently decry their lousy grading for the series that I collect. But, why does that mean I should stop participating on this message board?

You understand that the best way to keep PCGS on their toes and to give them incentive to improve is by pointing out their failings. (Of course, we should do so fairly.) The worst thing to do is to say: ``You don't like PCGS? Well, shut up and go away.''

I'm a strong believer in providing feedback -- positive as well as negative.

EVP

rduval

I do not hate PCGS Nor do I hate any other grading service. When I purchase coins I look for Coins that match the rest of my collection mostly NGC & PCGS. Other Grading Services are sometimes acceptable to me depending on the coin, I buy the coins not the holder.

But out there in the Hobby world alot people think that the only "good" Slabs are from PCGS, and that PCGS never inaccuratley grades a coin. Which is not true, I have seen slabs from every grading service that should not have the grade they are assigned, and some that deserved a higher grade than assigned. Should a coin in a PCGS holder cost more just because it is graded by PCGS?

What most people want is a Standard today NO Standard exists, there is PCGS's Standard, NGC's Standard, ICG's Standard etc. There is no INDEPENDANT PARTY watching all of the grading company's to ensure that they all grade consistantly by the same standard. You could say that they all grade by the Sheldon standard 1-70 but Who insures that everyones ms69 for instance is the same.

It seems that we pay good money for a opinion & a Plastic container NOT A STANDARD.