White Haze on Early Copper

KSorbo

I’ve noticed that some of my circulated early copper coins have a whitish haze in certain areas when tilting them under a light. For example the Massachusetts copper below, particularly in the lower right side of the obverse. Is this normal and market acceptable, or is it something that turned in the holder or otherwise indicative of a copper coin? Perhaps it’s just the start of normal oxidation?

Namvet69

I don't know but the haze looks like it's on the slab plastic surface. Peace Roy

KSorbo

I can confirm the haze is not on the slab.

Broadstruck

The white I've seen on copper is usually some sort of muck the coin was laid in and not growth.

There was a thread on it a few years ago and I can't recall if we ever determined what it was?

Sadly I can't find anything on new forum format... Goggle sometimes helps, but not in this case

Broadstruck

I supersized your photo and saw what looks like dandruff which is nothing to worry about.

I've seen a EAC dealer remove that white stuff with one swipe of a camel hair brush.

Hemispherical

Very old thread, but might be from the holder?

Linked thread is about cents kept in plastic tubes for 40 years that developed a white haze.

Might be the case of heat and humidity breaking down the plastic and making it brittle, flake, and powdery.

Insider2

1. Only the OP knows what the coin looked like (if he sent it in raw). If so, he should know when the haze developed.

2. If the OP bought it already slabbed, the coin needs to be conserved. Send it to PCGS.

3. There is a big difference between white specks on a copper coin and a white haze. This coin appears to have both. Without seeing the coin the haze cannot be ID'ed. As for the white spots, most copper remains "sticky" from the oils put on them or from the reaction of their surface to the environment. As Mr, Bstruck posted: "I've seen a EAC dealer remove that white stuff with one swipe of a camel hair brush." Brushing copper coins is done regularly. When I joined EAC they even sold the jeweler's brushes to members. There is probably a video someplace about how they are to be used w/o damaging a coin.

4. White specks on copper are very common. Indeed, sometimes they are even skin flakes. We go to great pains to make sure they are removed before slabbing and unfortunately, due to the sticky surface on coppers, many do not blow right off during slabbing. The simple act of putting a coin back into the flip after removing the debris after it is graded, often results in more becoming attached!! The QC step catches little problems as this so they can be corrected.

PS During QC, I like to JOKE "why bother to waste a slab to fix this because most older collectors couldn't even see the debris inside the plastic.. Then I do the "right" thing.

KSorbo

@Insider2 said:
1. Only the OP knows what the coin looked like (if he sent it in raw). If so, he should know when the haze developed.

2. If the OP bought it already slabbed, the coin needs to be conserved. Send it to PCGS.

I just purchased this from a Heritage auction. Here are their photos. As you can see it’s not very noticeable head on.

Does the haze make the coin not market acceptable in its current holder? Or is it mild enough that it was likely to have been slabbed that way?

Insider2

As long as it is in that holder it is market acceptable. I'm not speaking for any TPGS but If I owned a company and saw one of my products look like that I would...

KSorbo

@Insider2 said:
As long as it is in that holder it is market acceptable. I'm not speaking for any TPGS but If I owned a company and saw one of my products look like that I would...

Perhaps the TPG’s tend to let more things slide when it comes to Colonials. I have another straight graded coin, a Connecticut copper, that shows obvious signs of being scrubbed with a wire brush. Have others observed this type of thing as well?

Insider2

@KSorbo said:"Perhaps the TPG’s tend to let more things slide when it comes to Colonials. I have another straight graded coin, a Connecticut copper, that shows obvious signs of being scrubbed with a wire brush. Have others observed this type of thing as well?

Yes. I don't agree with this policy but it exists. It is also REALISTIC for our old vintage coins that are circulated.

IMO, If the TPGS were not more liberal regarding all coins in conditions below VF perhaps 40% of those coins that are presently straight graded would be "detailed" for something. We've even had examples of high-grade, damaged coins that are straight graded posted on this forum! Remember, the TPGS's claim that they are placing a value on the coin with the grade opinion. That includes your scratched Colonial!

I'm usually the first grader on a box. I enjoy looking for problems and "doctored" stuff. Yesterday I pre-screened a box of 400+ coins of all types (one electrotype pattern for yellow label) dating from 1793 to 1947 and I rejected at least 85% of them for problems that I don't tolerate as the "consumer advocate" around here (remember I've been correctly accused of being a brutal grader in another discussion). I wrote the problem on the flip for my rejects. Then our "market graders" go to work and possibly 5 -8% of my rejects MAY be straight graded. Yeah, I may be too strict sometimes but I'll remind you that there are examples of over/under and correctly graded coins in every TPGS holder. That includes straight graded "problem" coins. When all is said and done, we are very lucky to have the major grading services and the fact that there is the opportunity for second opinions!