Test issue print runs

helionaut

Is there any reference for the size of Topps's test issue print runs? Some are so scarce they couldn't possibly have been released to the public, while others are more common than some of today's infinite number of sets. There was a '67 Stand Up Rose on Ebay last week that didn't meet reserve (final bid over $2K), and the auction said there were only 5 copies made. There are others that are so extremely rare that most collector's only ever see them in the annual guides. Then there are issues like 71 Greatest Moments, which have strong popularity it's not too difficult to build a nice set, even in graded form. And then there's a set like 75 Minis, which are probably the most common of all tests. Are pritn runs really known of cards like the Rose, or sets like 68 3-Ds or 56 Stamps?

I guess I'm also wondering why there would be so many tests, at least 1 or 2 per year throughout the 50s through the 70s, without there actually being a full line of products based on them. There are sets like 77 Cloths, which were a revistation of the 72 Cloths, and 64 Giants, and in the 80s there were less-interesting new "legitimate" issues, but they are part of a mere handful of possible full lines. What would Greatest Moments have looked like in 1972, 1973, 1974, or how big would the Plaks line have grown if the tests were deemed successful? What if instead of Minis, we had 75 Topps Giants? Would've been sweet.

mikeschmidt

There is no good answer to your question -- some test runs simply did not seem to do so well, so they never were released to the public. The 1967 Stand-Ups is a good example of this. Though exact quantities are not known -- the few that have been sold and released over the past decase all seem to have their roots back with Woody Gelman. The 1968 Topps 3-D's were at least released -- though in very limited quantities -- with much of what is out there available perhaps coming from inside sources.

Were the 1972 Cloths ever actually released? I don't know the answer -- I never thought so. Every example I have ever seen is either in a full uncut sheet form or something that looks handcut. The '71 Greatest Moments and '69 Supers were both actually released -- though they are extraordinarily difficult to find in high grade.

I am thankful that executive such as Gelman were so intersted in trying new marketing ideas and experimenting with new formulas. It is even better that so many examples of such cars are still around in our hobby -- albeit in limited form. It really adds a lot to our hobby to see what could have or would have happened -- or what was discussed behind closed doors. Looking at the proofs for the 1956 Bowman baseball or even the large-size Bowman cards (before the '53s) all provide very interesting insight behind the hobby's history.

1954

Great question...
Here is my take on this. I have collected the 1971 Topps GM and 1964 Topps stand ups for a very long time. I actually just got done writing an article for Beckett publications on both of these sets. My finding is something very strange and very coincedental.

1964 Topps stand ups Total cards 77
Single prints 22 cards
Double prints 33 cards
Short prints 22 cards
This has not been proven, however trying to make this set I have figured out which commons are really not common. Check this months Vintage Beckett for more information.

1971 Topps GM Total cards 55
Single prints 22 cards
Double prints 22 cards
Short prints 11 cards
This has been proven. Check next months Vintage Beckett for more information.
Both sets are divisable by 11, short prints, double prints, single prints.......... they have a system. Trying to find it before everyone else does could make you some $$$$$$.

Leo

z2345

Is the seller correct in that there were two variations? The ones sold by SCP a few months ago were all perforated. The annual SCD and Becketts also make no mention of a thinner, non-perforated version. Does anyone have knowledge about this?

1954- Can't wait for your article about 64 Stand-ups and 71 Greatest Moments. Any thoughts about articles regarding 67 Stand-ups, 68 3-Ds, 68 Test Basketball, etc.?

curmudgeon

Hey 1954---Your news is very interesting, and worthy of further investigation. I've always been interested in the entire concept of short prints, double prints, etc. I remember when the '61 Topps set listed some but not all of the SPs, then as years went by, a few more (eg. Maloney, Barker) were added to the guides. I never knew what process was used to confirm the discovery of these "new" SPs-examination of sheets, talks with dealers or Topps execs or what.
How did you reach your findings, and could you please explain the difference between a short print and a single print?

1954

The 1964 Topps stand up set is in the vintage Beckett as we speak. It just hit last Thursday. As for the 1971 Topps Greatest moments article, this should be printed in next months issue.

I just noticed something that HELionaut said that makes no sense. You state that the 1971 Topps Greatest Moments set is easy???? So you must have a set of this? Since it must be easy to find them, I am going to offer up a challange to you. I will bet that your set (if you have one) will not grade out above a 6.55 if the whole thing is graded. At least four of your cards in your set will be "colored" and about 11 of your cards will be qualified as off centered. If the set grades higher than a 6.55, I will reimburse you your grading costs. So in essence, you're grading the set for free if it is really that nice. However, if it does not meet this low number I get one of your cards my pick out of your set. Since it is easy to find, there should be no problem replacing that for Beckett pricing? Right.

As for the gentlemen that would like to know more information on 1968 Topps 3-D, 1968 Topps Basketball, and 1967 Topps Stand up sets. I have never worked on these before, so I really don't have a true knowledge of the set. These are really tough sets and very valuable.

Leo/1954

z2345

1967 Topps Standup Pete Rose (thin version)

Does anyone know whether there was, in fact, two different variations?

RedHeart54

The April 24 SportsCard Plus auction had about everything mentioned here. There were 13 1967 Giant Stand Ups and these indeed were the "stand up" version as opposed to the "thin" version. Among the stars were Rose, Mantle, F.Robinson, Kaline, Mays, Aaron, and Yaz. If you go to their site, (sportscardsplus.com) they might still have the realized prices posted somwhere. (But I think the Rose went for $4000+.) There were also a number of '71 GMs, mostly 8s and a few 9s. The '68 Topps Plaks pack went for an ungodly sum as well.

RedHeart54

Actually, here's the link to the prices realized for these cards.

SportsCards Plus prices

helionaut

I never said the 71 GM set is easy, Shane, I said it's "not too difficult." Neither did I say anything about grade, or ease of completion in relation to, say, the regular 71 Topps set. What I said, or at least meant to say, is that amongst the test issues, 71 GMs seems to be somewhere in the top half or third of the spectrum of ease of acquisition. Even with the SPs, compared to cards like 60 Leaf Large Heads or 56 Bowmans, it really isn't too difficult. Since I started building the set around 6 months ago, nearly every card in the set has been at least offered on ebay in some grade, slabbed or unslabbed. You of all people should realize that, as you've sold me almost every card in my set (#4 on the registry).

Wish my local shops carried the Vintage Beckett. I came across an issue once and it was everything the regular Beckett is not, i.e. containing a bit of good hobby journalism.

helionaut

No, actually I'm #5. Forgot someone came along and bumped me down a little while ago. But I'm closing the gap.

1954

The reason why almost every card in the set has been offered on Ebay is because I broke two of my lower grade sets. I never sold the two Pepitones though. Anyway, for anyone to say that it is easy is crazy. If you polled every card of GM on Ebay from the last year you would not find but 35 cards offered there. Not to mention, you said that this set is easy graded or ungraded in high quality. You don't have one PSA 8 in your set, you are not even half way through completing it. Dude, you are placing comments out there that have no truth or research. These cards are not the hardest to come by, but you were comparing them to 1975 Topps minis. Please!!
Tell everyone how easy it is to finish it when you are 100% complete and all PSa 7s and better.


1954

mikeschmidt

Shane:

As an outsider -- it is very difficult for me to weigh in on the specifics of this debate.

I would say that 1960 Leaf Large Head and 1954 Wilson Franks are definitely harder than 1971 TGM.
I would say that 1974 Deckle Edge, 1964 Stand Ups, 1968 3-D, 1969 Topps Super are all easier in high grade than 1971 TGM.
I would say that 1967 Stand Up is harder than 1971 TGM.

I would say that 1975 Topps Mini shouldn't even be in the discussion -- it is easier to find a case of 1975 Minis today than it is to find a single NM or better 1971 TGM set.

I would say that anyone who can complete any of the above sets in high grade should be commended -- and I think it will be a long time before the debate is officially settled.

By the way, Shane -- any chance you could shoot me a copy of your wantlist? Let me know.

MS

1954

You are absolutely right MikeSchmidt. My point is this, in comparing any two sets you better have the knowledge for both of them. I have had many people ask me which one is more difficult to build, 1964 Topps stand up, 1967 Topps stand ups, 1971 GMs, or 1968 Topps 3-Ds? I can not give an honest opinion of these questions because I have never collected the 1968 3ds or 67 Stand ups. I can tell you by rumor but not by experience. When Helionaut said that it was much easier to make this set than the 1967 stand ups, he does not have ONE 1967 stand up and he is not even 50% complete on his 1971 Topps GM.
This message board is such a blessing to have as a collector when people offer up their information as to what is hard and what is not. However, I, like many people, want to hear the truth of past experiences. What I don't want to hear is a persons view of non factual information.
Joel, I am not trying to put you down here, so if I have offended you here, I am sorry. Who knows, there might be a suitcase of 1967 Topps Stand ups out there like the great find of Mr. Mint with the 1968 3-ds. The 1968 Topps 3-Ds back in 1987 were practically nonexistant. Thanks to Mr. Mint know, you pretty much can make the 10 card set today if you wanted to spend $23,000. I really don't think you could do that with the 1971 Topps greatest moments set. Ask any dealer if he has some.

Mikeschmidt, you find any 1954 Wilson Weiners and 1971 Topps greatest moments, you let me know directly; I will buy them.
1954

z2345

<< <i> The 1968 Topps 3-Ds back in 1987 were practically nonexistant. Thanks to Mr. Mint know, you pretty much can make the 10 card set today if you wanted to spend $23,000. I really don't think you could do that with the 1971 Topps greatest moments set. Ask any dealer if he has some.
>>



I am not saying the 1971 TGMs are easy by any means, but does anyone remember the Sportscards Plus press release prior to the April 2002 auction? If I remember correctly, the official at SC+ was talking in terms of how amazing it was to hold a "brick" of pack fresh TGMs in his hands. How many cards are in a brick? I certainly do not know.

This leads me to think there are morenice examples from this find than initially sold in the April auction.

1954

They did receive 2-3 of each player from this set, however they only sent in the cards that had a chance at a PSA 8+. They received about 8 PSA 7s, 6 PSA 9s and the rest PSA 8s. The other cards they received from the eX-topps employee were not of NRmt-mt grade. That goes to show you that they are very hard to find in high grade.

1954

TheCARDKid

I've been fascinated with the '68 Topps Test Basketball issue. They did come in wax packs (actually I believe it was some type of envelope) and the print run was rumored to be around 100 of each player or less (Beckett did a story on the cards quite a while ago). Judging from the examples graded by PSA so far (only a handful of each card, with many of those coming from the Topps employee who sold them at SCP's auction), they are arguably the rarest basketball cards post 1960. You could get into a debate about some of the early 50's cards (such as the Bread for Health, Bread for Energy George Mikan cards, etc) about which cards are the rarest, but if you're looking for a Chamberlain or Russell card, hands down, those are the toughest.

Where did Mr Mint get all those '68 3-D cards from? Weren't those the ones that eventually graded PSA 10 and found their way into the set registry?

koby

Cardkid- It has been some time since I looked at a Beckett magazine. Do you happen to have an the Beckett with the article about the 68 Test issues? The only mention of the 68 Topps Test basketball cards that I remember is ranking the Russell card as one of the most important basketball cards.

If it is a recent Beckett, I will order a back issue from the Beckett website. Otherwise, I would greatly appreciate it if you could either photocopy the article for me. Thanks, Koby

NickM

There are two separate areas of difficulty on test issues - finding them in any condition and finding them in high grades. '64 Stand-Ups are significantly easier to build as a set than '71 Greatest Moments, and those are significantly easier to build than '67 Stand-Ups or '68 3-D. This conclusion is based on simply looking at what is available for sale over time at shows, on eBay, and in major auctions. That doesn't make any of these sets easy (although I have seen multi-card lots of '64 Stand-Ups offered, including multiples of the same player).

Nick

RedHeart54

The '64 Stand Ups were much harder to find before an auction last year in which one lot featured multiples upon multiples of most cards including the stars. I think it was SportsCards Plus. (I'll look for the old catalogue.) I remember starting a topic here regarding the falling prices of '64 Stand Ups shortly thereafter. All I know is I paid around $700 or $800 or more for an 8 Koufax. Now they sell for about $400. Ow.

z2345

Are the 1975 minis and 1964 Stand-Ups even considered "tests"? I have always thought of these two sets simply as ancillary sets. This is similar to the 1990s when Topps introduced its Stadium Club line. Stadium Club was simply another set , similar to the regular Topps set. The 64 Standups are harder but there are almost three-thousand cards graded by PSA. Is this really considered rare by anyone's standards?

TheCARDKid

Koby,

I don't have the Beckett any more. It was from 93-95 probably. I remembered the story off the top of my head since the set has always intrigued me. I remember Beckett ranking the 50 greatest basketball cards and the Russell was in there. That was a cool story.

mikeschmidt

I think 1964 Stand Up is rare in high grade -- but is no longer considered a rare set.

RedHeart54

Weren't '75 minis and '64 Stand Ups only released in select areas/test markets? Stadium Club was released everywhere as a mainstream set.