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1943 S and P

acadienacadien Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
edited September 14, 2019 10:42PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Try to figure what I got here. The 1943 S on the left is non magnetic and the 1943 P on the right is magnetic. Using a strong magnet I can lift the P mint mark as show on the photos.



From 42 to 45 (56% copper, 35% silver, 9% manganese). Previous years was made I believe with copper, nickle.

Do I have a rare transition War nickle?

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    acadienacadien Posts: 635 ✭✭✭

    I took 2 nickle with a P mint mark. One on the left is a 1945 P and the one on the right is a 1943 P. The 1945P on the left is also non magnetic and the one on the right is the 1943P magnetic.
    Notice the color on the 1945 , dark, grey, green and blue that show content of silver. The 1943 P has only a light grey color.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Silver war nickels take on a variety of colors. Both of yours look within the range to me.

    Do your pre-silver nickels stick to a magnet? If not then I doubt it's a leftover prewar blank.

    I have ko idea why one would stick to a magnet. Maybe the alloy was not consistent? (Is manganese magnetic?).

    Lastly, who routinely takes a magnet to their coins? :p

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    acadienacadien Posts: 635 ✭✭✭

    Manganese has five unpaired electrons, and Manganese is paramagnetic

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    HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2019 11:55PM

    Nice magnet. Came out of a hard drive.

    Edge pic.

    Weight?

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    emeraldATVemeraldATV Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    IM LOST FOR WORDS ! :*

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    acadienacadien Posts: 635 ✭✭✭

    The 1943P that is attracted to a magnet weigh 4.7gr all the other weight between 4.9 and 5.0gr

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    acadienacadien Posts: 635 ✭✭✭

    Yes the magnet came out of a hard drive. I will try a specific gravity test using my coin scale and a plastic cup filled with water. Placed the cup containing the water on the scale then pressed the tare weight button on the scale which zeroed it out. With the nickel tied to a sewing thread I submerged the nickel in the water which produced a weight of .55 grams. I then divided 5.00 grams by .55 grams which gave me a density reading of 8.92 which is the density of copper/nickel. Silver density is 9.25. Now does anyone out there know how I can find out the metal content to be sure that it is copper/nickel and not silver?

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    KudbegudKudbegud Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019 2:49PM

    https://bruker.com/products/x-ray-diffraction-and-elemental-analysis/handheld-xrf.html

    Not an endorsement of Bruker, just the first in a Google search for "handheld xrf analyzer". There are several at various prices. Borrowing one or having some one with one test for you. Precious Metal buyers now days use these.
    Good Luck.!

    edit to add:
    I didn't realize how expensive these things are. Yikes !
    Here is the search results on Ebay:
    https://ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2499334.m570.l1311.R1.TR12.TRC2.A0.H1.Xxrf.TRS0&_nkw=xrf+analyzer&_sacat=0


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    acadienacadien Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019 2:36PM

    Here is a article date 2009 explaining Eddy currents in the copper, and dimes and quarters are a higher percent copper than nickels (because they have more nickel!).
    Longer answer: The composition of US coins being minted now is some mixture of copper and nickel. This information is readily available online:
    Quarter: 91.68% Cu 8.33% Ni
    Dime: 91.68% Cu 8.33% Ni
    Nickel: 75% Cu 25% Ni
    Penny: 97.5% Zn 2.5% Cu
    Bet you didn't expect that- pennies are mostly zinc, and have the least copper out of all of them! Honestly, I don't know if this is an alloy, or if it's a plating of nickel over a copper core, and that could matter.
    Anyway, only a few metals and their alloys are ferromagnetic - this means the metal has little domains which act like tiny magnets inside the material, which will align in the presence of an external magnetic field (like the field of a bar magnetic) and become magnetic. This is why you can pick up paper clips with paper clips already attached to your bar magnet.
    Anyway, the only metals that have this property are iron, nickel, and cobalt (and a handful of their alloys). This paper studies the magnetic properties of copper-nickel alloys and reports, "although copper is only weakly diamagnetic it requires 0.8 or 0.9 percent nickel to neutralize this diamagnetic effect and 56 percent nickel is required before the alloy shows ferro-magnetic properties at ordinary temperature." This seems to indicate that the ratios of copper and nickel and American coins would not have magnetic properties at room temperature.
    Coins struck at different times than today might have different compositions, which is why I wonder what year your coins were struck. For example, pennies, struck in 1943, were actually minted with steel in an effort to ration copper in the war.
    Anyway, all that rambling aside, my guess is what you're seeing is the result of "Eddy Currents" in the copper. When you wave a magnetic around a metal slab you're changing the magnetic field through the metal, which can induce electric currents. This is called Faraday's law: changing the magnetic field flowing through some area of a piece of a conductor will create electric currents in that conductor.
    In a slab of copper, for instance, this can make little circular currents (kind of like little vortexes) which will in turn create their own magnetic field, pushing back on the original magnet. This video shows what happens when you drop a magnetic down a copper pipe- it goes slowly because of the force exerted on the magnet by the Eddy currents.
    To test this, I recommend holding the coin at a steep angle, and if you have a small neodymium magnet, try to slide it down the coin like a ramp. If it goes slowly, it's probably Eddy currents in the copper. I suggest this because I found at least one patent for a coin discriminator that measures the frequency of the Eddy currents in the coin in the presence of an external magnetic field. It wasn't patented until 2009.

    Question is : do I have a 1943P war copper nickle?

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    acadienacadien Posts: 635 ✭✭✭

    @Kudbegud said:
    https://bruker.com/products/x-ray-diffraction-and-elemental-analysis/handheld-xrf.html

    Not an endorsement of Bruker, just the first in a Google search for "handheld xrf analyzer". There are several at various prices. Borrowing one or having some one with one test for you. Precious Metal buyers know days use these.
    Good Luck.!

    edit to add:
    I didn't realize how expensive these things are. Yikes !
    Here is the search results on Ebay:
    https://ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2499334.m570.l1311.R1.TR12.TRC2.A0.H1.Xxrf.TRS0&_nkw=xrf+analyzer&_sacat=0

    Yes I know it is very expensive and university that have one of these, would probably zap it for 3k-5K.

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    OldhoopsterOldhoopster Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Both coins have the visual appearance of the wartime alloy. See if you can find a "We buy gold" place that has a handheld ADD and see if the can shoot it for you.

    And to answer your question. The U.S. Cent is copper plated zinc, not an alloy. They have been like this since mid 1982. You may want to grab a copy of A Guide Book of United States Coins (called the redbook). It has this info plus lots of other great stuff. Best $10-15 you'll ever spend on the hobby

    Member of the ANA since 1982
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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am still a little confused as to why you think the magnetic nickel is made from the pre-war alloy if the pre- war nickels are not magnetic.

    In any case, I believe that silver war nickels are notorious for occassionally having an uneven alloy mixture as evidenced by visible striations and frequent laminations. Maybe yours has a greater proportion of something magnetic.

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    AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,538 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just checked a roll of War nickels with a neodymium magnet and none were magnetic. Various dates, P, D, and S's. Didn't even get a wiggle out of them.

    bob :)

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
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    AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,538 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Perhaps it is a counterfeit?

    bob :)

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
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    acadienacadien Posts: 635 ✭✭✭

    The counterfeit are know no to have the large Mint mark above

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    acadienacadien Posts: 635 ✭✭✭

    I did the drop test on my floor, made out of bamboo believe me it very hard. The 43P, 43S, 45P all have high ring tone. The 41 and 46 all have dull sound. Make more sense now, the 3 war Nickles are silver and the 41, 46 copper.

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    acadienacadien Posts: 635 ✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    I am still a little confused as to why you think the magnetic nickel is made from the pre-war alloy if the pre- war nickels are not magnetic.

    In any case, I believe that silver war nickels are notorious for occassionally having an uneven alloy mixture as evidenced by visible striations and frequent laminations. Maybe yours has a greater proportion of something magnetic.

    It surely was a good debate JBK an I believe your are correct in your alloy mixture. It surely was and odd one 1943P being magnetic. The drop test was successful on my Bamboo floor, came out with a very high pitch.

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    acadienacadien Posts: 635 ✭✭✭

    Thanks to all who participated misidentifying this 1943P war nickle being Silver including the alloy mixture proportion that somehow made mine magnetic.

    P.S. Any chance for a premium being Magnetic?

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    acadienacadien Posts: 635 ✭✭✭

    @AUandAG said:
    Just checked a roll of War nickels with a neodymium magnet and none were magnetic. Various dates, P, D, and S's. Didn't even get a wiggle out of them.

    bob :)

    I can add a video showing if you like

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    HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Needs to be authenticated for any premium by a TPGS.

    IMO.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,931 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @acadien said:
    The counterfeit are know no to have the large Mint mark above

    If you are referring to the Henning counterfeits, the 1944 had no Mint Mark. I don't think anyone has found a 1943 Henning counterfeit although they were rumored to exist.

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    acadienacadien Posts: 635 ✭✭✭

    @Hemispherical said:
    Needs to be authenticated for any premium by a TPGS.

    IMO.

    thanks

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    I have a 1943-S nickel that is magnetic.

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    OAKSTAROAKSTAR Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jeffwalton said:
    I have a 1943-S nickel that is magnetic.

    You should start a new thread with pictures of your coin. Full pictures, front and back.

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

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    Steven59Steven59 Posts: 8,294 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jeffwalton said:
    I have a 1943-S nickel that is magnetic.

    Gotsta prove it before stating

    "When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"

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    lcutlerlcutler Posts: 504 ✭✭✭✭

    @Jeffwalton said:
    I have a 1943-S nickel that is magnetic.

    Not at all unusual, I have seen lots of them on the coin forums. One member did some testing, and a fair number of coins showed at least some attraction to a magnet.

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    BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,413 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If I'm not mistaken, this subject was covered here previously.

    I don't know how long ago, but pretty recent.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, war nickels can be slightly magnetic.

    But why would anyone take a magnet to one in the first place? 🤔

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