I'm now starting to use strategery'.
jkrk
Posts: 967 ✭✭✭✭✭
I love buying and selling. I've done it my whole life (I lied, probably 40 years).. For most of my life it was equities/commodities. Coins are my gold proxy/hobby.
Now I'm stuck with $20 gold pieces and I'm trapped in the middle of a bad market for trading. Meaning, I can sell Saints 63's and lower (generics) at melt / a few dollars less for lower).. Thanks to the boards for pointing me to see price weakness in premiums before I ran into trouble. I wouldn't be happy if I had bought 50-100 coins at a "wrong price". I don't mind losing money. I mind my own stupidity. On the other hand, I can't buy very many coins below melt. Thus, the market is too tight for me to operate in the middle. I can play when I receive the e-bucks but otherwise I'm basically boxed out. In my world, No buying = no selling. I'll play the coins I have.
Selling on E-Bay runs about 11% cost (store) - The buyers get 3% (always) -12% (from time to time) discounts depending on bonuses thus I can achieve a better price on E-Bay then going to an auction.
I have a number of CAC $20's which I can put into the store with a somewhat higher BIn so that will keep me playing for awhile..
That's the background of where I am.
Clearly, local buyers who can save me shipping/CC charge/ selling costs makes a bit of sense but I'm unknown. BST.. probably doesn't pay since I would only save the e-bay final value fees. The risk works 2 ways so I'm not a fan. After the discounted price buyers would want....I might as well sell to dealers.
I am thinking about strategery but suspect I'm stuck in the middle with the coins?
Hopefully I didn't ramble too much?
Thoughts.
Comments
The Ebay fee saving on a $1500 coin is substantial so the BST should be a decent option on $20 Gold. Have heard that stuff can languish on the BST so maybe that opportunity has lessened.
e buyers get 3% (always) -12% (from time to time) discounts depending on bonuses thus I can achieve a better price on E-Bay then going to an auction.
I have a store. Total cost about 9%.
Virtually the ONLY way I play classic gold or other "bullion" items is by buying them when I have eBay bucks and then dumping them to my local dealer. VERY VERY RARELY do I manage to sell one on eBay. I sometimes put them on there with a 12-15% markup and hope someone buys them when THEY have eBay bucks. But that is usually just a holding place until I'm ready to take them to my local guy.
The bid/ask spread on bullion is so small that I'm not even sure how Apmex manages it even with their roughly 5% eBay costs. On a bulliony $20, you're looking at around $50 bid/ask spread these days. Crazy.
I've thought about the Apmex business model. I suspect that as an E-Bay partner their promos are relatively large. They must have a deal with Paypal also. I suspect when Apmex runs a special they are paying no more than 3% to the pair.
IPart of my 11% fee is $25 for registered mail. Clearly, if I bought a blanket ins I could ship express and save postage. I am also assuming a 6.15% FVF vs 5% which is where I should ultimately be? the two would brig me down to 9%.
As a buyer on BST I need to pay a much lower price than I would on e-Bay. The Many discounts on E-bay offsets at least half the savings. The risk on boards is also a factor for both parties.
The other option is to bundle the coins on eBay. The max fee is $350 now, so if you can sell a $10k bundle of 6 or 7 coins, your eBay fees are down to 3.5% or less.
BST isn't really helpful, I don't think. You still have your $25 shipping fee. You still have 3% PayPal - unless the buyer is willing to shoulder the F&F risk. And, as you mention, the $100 in eBay bucks is what entices many of us on the boards to buy generic gold
Wasn't the max fee $250 recently?
Pretty soon the only sellers will be Apmex and CDN members.
Yes, they raised it last year.
When there's a 3% buy/sell spread on something, no sound strategy can involve using eBay to sell.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Agreed. Frankly, there's almost no sound strategy for any long distance sale. Postage and return postage alone eat the 3%. Add ANY payment costs and forget it.
I've toyed with the idea of the bundle. 7 coins could bring the total selling costs to $350 + $300+ 50 = around $700 or $100/coin down from .$160 (?).
Then I thought, you've eliminated quite a bit of the retail marketplace & the e-Bucks special buyers. IMO, the potential buyer of the 7 coins would want the "special price" so am I much better off with a somewhat discounted bid?
With that said, I keep considering the option.
I believe as many have said the margin issue eliminates all possibilities.
In the meantime, I have probably about 40 CAC coins plus 10 - 20 Gold pieces that are worth more than generics. I don't sell that many coins in a year so I can offer coins for awhile. In addition, I'm a buyer with the the special bucks and a seller if the FVF has a $20 cap (last yr had 3 this yr 0 for coins).
In reality the coins are a proxy for gold itself so if the margins are tight and I can't sell does it matter?
I'm just annoyed that "They" just took away my ball and I can't play.
LOL. Bullion is a lousy business. Margins are ridiculously small. It seems glamorous and profitable to people because they are blinded by the reputation of gold. This happens all the time at my local B&M: someone comes in and buys a couple ounces of gold. Another customer says something like "you are eating stake tonight". And all I can think is that the poor schlub who owns the place maybe made $50 to $100 after laying out $3000.
I'm not sure who "they" are. This has always been a problem with bullion: margins suck. Even when gold was cheaper and the premium was higher: the margins still sucked.
I've been on eBay since 1997. Even then, I did not sell much bullion on eBay - and that's with 2.5% fees and payment by check or money order. It was always more profitable to flip it to a dealer.
Don’t sell your bullion gold below spot !😄
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Isn't this the same as saying "don't buy your bullion at spot"?
I always try to buy bullion below spot .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
LOL. You're the IDEAL customer. You will buy my bullion below spot and sell it to me at spot. If I ever need a giant tax write-off, I'll give you a call.
I'm half kidding. Obviously, you want to buy as low as possible and sell as high as possible. But the "don't sell your bullion below spot" really fails to acknowledge the need for a bid/ask spread. If you want to be paid spot, you need to expect to pay over spot to acquire IF YOU ARE A COLLECTOR. Obviously, you're a dealer so you should be buying below spot and selling slightly above spot.
You ramble too much. That's my strategy.
Bid/ask spread means diddley in a rising market
Bidask is not a dealer 😊
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Bidask IS a dealer because you are handling bullion like a dealer. You can pretend you're a collector, but I collector is wholesaling their coins (back of spot) and buying coins retail (spot or slightly above). Since your strategy is to buy wholesale (back of spot) and sell retail (spot or above), you ARE a dealer whether you want to call yourself one or not.
Rising market is irrelevant. You didn't say: never sell for less than you paid. You said: never sell below spot. Buy/sell price relative to spot is almost the definition of bid/ask spread.
Ok sell your gold below spot !
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
You own generic gold it seems and you want premium prices....doesn't work that way. Sending generic gold for a CAC sticker in my mind is just throwing money down the hole. Don't dig it deeper. Sell to your local coin shop and move along. My refiner pays 95% of spot so you should do somewhat better than that.
bob
No one's posted this yet? I took them up on it at the ANA show last week to sell some generic gold.
http://media.stacksbowers.com/cce/SBGDailyGoldFax.pdf
Collector, occasional seller
I DO. And I am a dealer. I sell it at 98% of the melt value of the coin. Except gold eagles, they get full melt.
They? You know who "they" are . Be careful because "they" might be listening. LOL.
In all seriousness I am reflecting on the disappearing premiums on $20 gold. The market has changed a bit. Maybe, the higher prices maybe alternative investments, maybe just a lack of interest in coins for whatever the reason? Even though the bid asked spread might have been the same I was selling MS62 coins to dealers at $20 over the gold price within the last year or so. It seemed as if I was buying gold ms62's from time to time for a small premium above melt. thus I was able to capture a 3% premium. Maybe it was the E-Bucks kicking in or greater selling incentives on E-Bay but I had the ability to swap and improve the grades, sell on E-Bay or sell to dealers. I am talking about more action for me.
Last year must have sold 30 coins on E-Bay. If they were near dealer prices I would have packaged them and sold them locally (NYC). Maybe I hit the selling discounts just right? The promos came in frequently and I took advantage. I did sell some to dealers as well when I started accumulating more than I needed/wanted.
"They" ? You know who "they" are? They are probably determining how to keep my ball away? LOL
1) If I understand what you are saying is that a MS63 1922 PCGS graded Saint sells for $1600 today and not $1550-$1650? That's the game.
2)If I can't buy additional gold below melt then I have no reason to sell any of my gold. I do have 30% excess inventory which I would dump to a dealer but selling gold futures are offering me a better deal (although I have been wiring money in August weekly to cover the margin i)..
"Languish" is being generous.
Profitable trading is all about the transaction costs. Ebay, auction fees, state sales tax etc. The window that allowed collectors to be their own dealer that existed in the earlier days of Ebay are now all but gone.
For gold, it has to be so generic that it can be sold locally. Otherwise, a buyer is just propping up the whole collectible market infrastructure with their money.
The other option is the waiting game. You wait for gold to drop really low (years), you buy, then you wait for gold to rise again (years and years). Ain't nobody got time for that.
This is what many who post on the BST do not comprehend. They will list their coins similar to what is found on Ebay, then expect a buyer even though the BST forum removes the 9.1% Ebay store fee.
You want to sell on the BST, your coins had better have most of the buyer's saved Ebay fees as a discount in the price.
There is a always a price that will grab the attention of the BST faithfull. So let's say one is selling a common saint in MS63 with a melt value of $1475. What price will attract a buyer?
Less than melt which i'm told you should never do.
Waste of money? Maybe. I sent in Saints 63 and up and LIbs 62 and up. If nothing else, after rejections, CAC graded my inventory for $3 coin.
I'm sure the topic has been covered a number of times but ... I started to wonder
What constitutes a generic gold coin?
I always thought coins that were common dates and basically sold to dealers for spot were considered generics?
Suppose a coin sold for $100 + spot to retail but spot to dealers? Generic?
If I am somewhat correct... which of the following would be a generic gold all pcgs graded?
1)1904 Liberty MS 62?
2)1891-S Liberty MS62
3)St gauden MS62 1924
4)St gauden ms60 1925
5)1904 Lib AU58
Thoughts?
In 2007 I had to sell my entire stock, and my personal collection to help defray the cost my Father was incurring as he was dying of cancer. Many of the people on this board at the time helped me when I was in need, to them I give my eternal thanks.
I had always wanted to put my personal collection back together, but the gold that I sold way below $800 an ounce now runs $1525 at spot. I just cannot bring myself to pay that much. Sure I would love to be able to pay that, but as my tagline explains I have been in a battle myself for awhile. I have been lucky enough to pick up some silver items, a few nice copper items, but gold, just to high of a price on a budget.
I have to wonder, is this gold that you want to dump bought when the market prices were higher or lower?
If higher I can understand why you want to get out. If it were lower, when the margin to add numismatic + spot was better, when someone didn't mind paying melt + $50 or more if it had eye appeal, you would be making a profit.
I guess what I am seeing in your conversation is where did the numismatic value go?
Is below melt like an old piece of jewelry all there is?
At melt your not even covering the price to grade the coin, let alone the fact that as collectors we can't stand the thought of watching a pot full of $20 Saints being melted down, forever being lost to make a gaudi piece of jewelry.
Could this be part of the problem?
I could be all wrong, but I thought I was on a Collector's Forum.
JMHO...
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
First off.... Good for your tenacity. It's what life is all about for all of us.
On less important issues....I have been witnessing the falling premiums on $20 gold pieces for years. At times, I wondered why? Has the gold price trading north of $1000 caused many to pull back from buying Pre 33 gold? Has the 8 year bear market caused investors to look elsewhere to invest money? Mint sales of modern gold hasn't been stellar recently, as well. Perhaps, gold buyers have little interest in historical pieces? Sure, the ultra high end market has demand as there are those that are flush with cash looking for a one in a kind collectible/lot but that buyer is just as likely to buy a Honus Wagner baseball card or an Action 1 comic. Does owning a 100 year old coin that isn't a special year interest a broad number of people, these days? Are too many dropping out of the gold market since the cost to make ends meet is affecting more people than years ago?
So...the other day I walked into a NYC dealer and watched a customer offering older silver bracelets to one of the owners. They were discussing the value of the bracelets in terms of the silver content. It seemed to me that if a deal was to be had it was based solely on the silver price with no premium for the work involved to fabricate the piece of jewelry. I walked out thinking.... is it any different for gold coins? Are they all going in the same direction (melt)? Each bracelet has a history. Do buyers care?
Yes, the point for anyone who needs to sell.....You're stopped at melt for many coins despite their history and artistry. As you said, maybe many coins are destined to melted and will end up in a shiny gold bar in a central banks vault?
Some gold i'm considering selling was bought when gold was lower some higher. I toy with the thought of selling some ms58/60 graded common years wondering if they are now destined to remain as lower grade generic gold pieces with no premium. I question if trading into 62's from 58's at a small additional cost is worthwhile? Maybe they're all the same and destined for the same pot to be melted down? Is that the story the very small premiums are telling?
So where did the numismatic value go?
I know that answer. Down. Will there be a recovery one day? I hope so for the hobby / collectors.
I truly am saddened, for the lack of attachment collectors seem to have for these old coins.
Maybe it just is what it is.
you could wait while tweets crash the market bumping gold values
or check out closing prices at GreatCollections, the buyer pays all fees if close is over $1000
Sort of a myth. The buyer pays the fees by decreasing his bid accordingly. Hence the seller is really paying all the fees.
I was just at an auction today with a 10% BP. The NGC 61 Libs hammered at $1350. Even if the consignor paid 0% as an official seller's fee, he really paid the 10% BP.
You are confusing a lack of attachment for a lack of collectors.
If you've got 10,000 collectors and 100,000 coins, do they each want to own 10 identical coins?
"You are confusing a lack of attachment for a lack of collectors".
I'm not sure why both can't be true?
They could be, but they don't need to be. And I think that suggesting a lack of attachment does a disservice to the actual coin collectors. There's plenty of gold collectors on this board who LOVE gold and pay well for pieces they want. You seem to have an attachment to gold. But unless you all want to bid up every $20 that crosses the block, there's simply not enough people chasing too many coins.
In this market, that is all very generic. The 91-S is definitely more "fun" but generic nonetheless.
There are many issues hitting the generic market especially 20s. First and foremost demand for coins are way down. This is a result of older collectors dying off, telemarketers pushing coins they can easily mass produce like modern 70s and large hoards coming out of Europe. A second big issue is that one of the major players in that area of the market has stopped carrying as large of a position. One has dropped what they try to carry from mid 8 figures down significantly. Lastly with price instability, the market has not yet adjusted to the "new normal" of the gold price. We were actually almost there with $1300 with people thinking the spot price was stable and could begin paying a premium for higher grade pieces. Then the market ran again and poof, gone again.
One result of the premiums never fully recovering is that the European sellers are getting more conservative with what they are sending over. It used to be they would force everything on the US market. Now they are actually melting some of the lower end stuff because there is no money to be made on it. While destroying historic coins seems sacrilegious to numismatists, there is a certain business reality that only so many dollars exist to carry product.