Is It Possible Tastes Could Change And ...
wondercoin
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1. SLQ quarters in non-FH could become HIGHLY sought after in high grades.
2. Mercury Dimes in non-FB could become HIGHLY sought after in high grades.
3. Jefferson Nickels in non-FS could become HIGHLY sought after in high grades (consider I have a 1939(d) nickel up on ebay right now in PCGS-MS67 at $275 with no bids and the same date in MS67FS could likely command upwards of $5,000++++ if one became available right now).
4. Franklin Half Dollars in non-FBL could become HIGHLY sought after in high grades.
5. Proof coins of all denominations from 1950-1967 in non-cameo or deep cameo could become highly sought after in high grades (for example a 1950 Franklin Half Dollar or Wash Quarter in PR68 (no cameo or DCAM ever commanding HUGE bucks).
6. Lincoln Cents in RB or BR super high grade could become highly sought after coins and command "big" bucks.
7. Silver Classic Commems in beautiful "white" could become hghly sought after coins and worth as much as monster color coins in the same grade.
Are all these coins destined to be "runner ups" or "hole fillers" or could these coins ever take off? Which ones have the best chance of exploding in popularity in the future? Any? Or, will it even get "more designer" in the future such as "FULL BAND ROOSEVELTS" OR EVEN "FULL STEP MEMORIAL CENTS (as far out a concept today as rock and roll music in the 1940's!!). My feeling is "more designer" is where this is all heading. If the grading services were to adopt a "full band" designation for Roosie dimes, perhaps 80%-90% of the currently slabbed coins could possibly correct somewhat downward in value, while that 10%-20% of "full band" pieces could potentially skyrocket, especially in certain key dates. I see this type of thing happening in the future long before Franklins get popular without FBL or Jeffersons take off without FS. Only possibly exception might be white commems gaining popularity with collectors, if a "white" craze takes over the market like we saw a few years back with Morgan Dollars. What do you think?
Wondercoin
2. Mercury Dimes in non-FB could become HIGHLY sought after in high grades.
3. Jefferson Nickels in non-FS could become HIGHLY sought after in high grades (consider I have a 1939(d) nickel up on ebay right now in PCGS-MS67 at $275 with no bids and the same date in MS67FS could likely command upwards of $5,000++++ if one became available right now).
4. Franklin Half Dollars in non-FBL could become HIGHLY sought after in high grades.
5. Proof coins of all denominations from 1950-1967 in non-cameo or deep cameo could become highly sought after in high grades (for example a 1950 Franklin Half Dollar or Wash Quarter in PR68 (no cameo or DCAM ever commanding HUGE bucks).
6. Lincoln Cents in RB or BR super high grade could become highly sought after coins and command "big" bucks.
7. Silver Classic Commems in beautiful "white" could become hghly sought after coins and worth as much as monster color coins in the same grade.
Are all these coins destined to be "runner ups" or "hole fillers" or could these coins ever take off? Which ones have the best chance of exploding in popularity in the future? Any? Or, will it even get "more designer" in the future such as "FULL BAND ROOSEVELTS" OR EVEN "FULL STEP MEMORIAL CENTS (as far out a concept today as rock and roll music in the 1940's!!). My feeling is "more designer" is where this is all heading. If the grading services were to adopt a "full band" designation for Roosie dimes, perhaps 80%-90% of the currently slabbed coins could possibly correct somewhat downward in value, while that 10%-20% of "full band" pieces could potentially skyrocket, especially in certain key dates. I see this type of thing happening in the future long before Franklins get popular without FBL or Jeffersons take off without FS. Only possibly exception might be white commems gaining popularity with collectors, if a "white" craze takes over the market like we saw a few years back with Morgan Dollars. What do you think?
Wondercoin Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
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Comments
To know me is to know that I do not care what others think . I have a few thoughts on the SLQ's:
1. Give me a non FH MS67 over a FH MS66 any day --- by definition, the MS67 coins is a better coin despite the lack of a FH. and it will cost less.
2. The coins I am trying to collect are POP's of none better (but sometimes I buy a beauty which I can not pass up which does indeed have a few better). Given the fact that these coins: a) have not been produced for 70+ years and b) most saw circulation during the depression, it is truly unlikely that dealers are sitting on a lot of yet to be slabbed coins --- in my opinion what you see is what you get in the SLQ POP -- but of course there will always be crackouts.
3. The best time to buy ANYTHING is when no one wants them. I am more than happy to load up on non FH coins now and wait 10 years for them to be desireable. are you aware that there are fewer high grade non FH SLQ's in MS 66 & 67 & 68 (for Type 1 & 2 combined) than there are FH's? .
With so many FH's (relative to non FH) out there, I can see either a)FH prices leveling off or dropping or b) non FH prices outpacing FH prices in the coming years.
4. I can see the day when FH, FB, FS etc get graded by percentage by PCGS...after all a 90% fh is worth more than a 50%fh
5. I would love to see the blazing white SLQ's make a comeback...that is what 90% of mine are
I am making these coins my mission for the year 2002. I will be at the Chicago coin show of Friday afternoon (I live in the Chicago area).
Feel free to PM me if you ever have an SLQ you think I may be interested in.
Stuart
Personally, I don't think that RB or Brown high grades could ever demand close to the RD values!
Seriously, I agree with you that if it went in any direction, it would be more detailed. Another possibilty would be a "Fully Struck" designation that could be added to most any kind of coin, such as Walkers, which I know are often not fully struck, but currently there is no added point for coins that are.
It could even be possible someday there would be an extra grade modifier to a Full Steps, Full Split Bands or Full Bell Lines that would mean there were no marks in the area, not just no interruptions of the lines.
Just my thoughts
JJacks
with a FB designation the bell covers a LARGE protion of the coin (perhaps 40% of the reverse). It is logical to pay more for the coin since the focal point is a large part of the coins surface.
with a FS designation the steps cover a LARGE portion of the coin (perhaps 10-15% of the reverse). It is logical to pay more for the coin since the focal point is a large part of the coins surface.
with a FB designation the bands cover a LARGE portion of the coin (perhaps 10% of the reverse). It is logical to pay more for the coin since the focal point is a large part of the coins surface.
with a FH designation the full head covers 2% ...yes that is right...only 2% of the front of the coin.
Yet people are willing to pay 5x or 10x or 20x the non FH price.
It seems extremely illogical ot pay so much for a FH when the FH is such a small focal point on the coins surface.
Comments?
In other words, that 39-D in MS67 may one day be a $225.00 coin (having lost ground) and the FS copy increasing above today's price.
There are just enough Collectors who want the "Best" (I know... I know....) that right side pops with all the bells and whistles will see ++gains (for the most part).
peacockcoins
what is truly "the best":
a 1927-s MS 67 non FH SLQ
or
a 1927-s MS 66 FH SLQ ... there are no 1927-s MS 67 FH SLQ's
Again I assert that the MS67 is the superior coin depsite the non FH status...it is graded as MS 67 which means that the coin is superior in all aspects except the head.
I can justify a FH SLQ being worth more than a non FH, but in many cases it is 10x or 20x it's non FH partner depsite the fact theat there are more slabbed.
A major problem, I believe is the set registry. Currently designation coins get a two point bonus. As many collectors want to play the registry a distortion is created. In Wonder's example, I might like the MS67 nickel, but I get as many points for a 65FS. What is the cost of that one?
How can PCGS right things. The first idea would be to give designation coins a 1/2 bonus only. This should be reasonable as a designation on average means the coin is a superior example for the grade, but not as good as the next grade up. Second, PCGS should change their designation to well-struck and consider all areas of the coin.
Don't know where the market is heading, but it seems like there is a price gap with non designation coins selling too cheap in many cases. At some poin that gap should fill.
Greg
Now, how about the Franklins? Would you choose a PR68 1959 or a PR67CAM, or even a PR66DCAM? Again, if a collector is just looking for one, as a type, then he 'may' chose the PR68. But I'd venture the true collector of this series is going to want the CAM or DCAM to match the rest of his set.
I guess you've got to ask yourself- which is the tougher coin to find? Is it the MS67 (SLQ) or the 66FH?
One other consideration: That 66FH "might" one day make it into a 67FH holder, but that MS67 will NEVER make it into a 67"FH" holder. (The grade may change but the head doesn't!)
peacockcoins
Will tastes change? Sure. But probably in a way most of us won't think of. I think fullness of strike will continue to be desired by the collecting public. I also think original surfaces will be desired. Perhaps the "blast white" coins will become less desirable in the future?
As to SLQs they are interesting. This is because you can find a coin with less than a full head that is better struck than a coin that does have a full head. I think these coins might be discovered and could be real winners. If the grading companies changed the FH designation to a FS (Full Strike) designation then these coins could become important. However it might be that only the few FH coins that are fully struck everywhere become the new FS coins. Who knows? I'm just speculating here.
Date......Grade........Pop.......Higher
1918D.......65...........48............4.....Pop is High because Very Few FB Coins are Certified
1918S.......65............22...........2.....Same Comment
1919D........64...........57..........15....Same Comment
1919S........64...........44..........35....Same Comment
1920D........65...........20...........2.....Hmmm...What Can I say ??
1920S.........64...........21..........7
1924S.........64..........33..........18
1927S.........64...........37.........17
1928P.........65...........21..........2....The Common Date
1928D.........64...........15.........10
1928S.........66...........22..........2
1929S.........67............0...........0.....This is a NGC Slabbed Coin that Has No Population at PCGS.
1930P.........66...........30..........6
1931P.........66...........10..........3
1934D.........66...........51..........4.....Fairly Common Coin
1935D.........66...........26..........3.....Same Remark
1936D.........66...........30..........4.....Ditto
Any Way this is the Situation in the Mercury Dime Series. Myself I Love Having all of these Coins with a Population Under 100 and With the Potential of Never Having a Population of 100. .........
Ken
On the CAM, DCAM question I am in agreement as well as on the rd, rb, and bn designations. If accurately graded a DCAM is clearly superior to and rarer then a CAM which is clearly superior to and rarer than a PR over the entire coin. Same with color designations. We might argue about number of bonus points but not about quality. As we have discussed, not so the case with strike designations.
The strike designation issue has lead me to not collect those series. I used to have a great cs Franklin set which I decided to sell because of that issue. Though I like Jeffs and Mercs, I don't collect the cs versions for that reason as well. Same for SLQs. I definately play the registry. As a collector/investor I would rather have the higher grade non-designation at a lower price, but don't want the registry deduction. So, I don't play in those series. For type, I buy the designation coins, but only when the entire coin is well struck, and for dates where the price premium is reasonable.
Greg
100% agreement from me.
I have seen MS64 FH coins that cost more than MS66 non FH coins for the same year despite the fact the the strike is far superior on the non FH. A true collector looks at everything not just the FH which covers a mere 2% of the surface of the coin.
peacockcoins
Greg
Buy SLQ FH and the risk reward ratio is not in your favor --- buy SLQ non FH and the risk reward ratio is much greater.
If you spend $1000 or more for a FH and PCGS does indeed start %FH grading, your coin drops in value dramatically. Think of all the coins not currently graded FH but they are 80% FH or 90% FH or even 95% FH.
A current non FH which would get graded as 90% FH would increase in value dramatically while the FH counterpart would lose value.
While there is no guarantee that PCGS will start % FH (or FB or FS etc) grading, it is any easy way for them to increase submissionsa and thus increase revenue.
never quite understood how a Franklin (or any coin, for that matter)
can grade a 66 or higher if it isn't fully struck. I say this knowing
that I have seen some Franklins with spectacular eye-appeal, but
not FBL, yet to me, if the strike is incomplete, it can't grade
above an FBL IMHO. BTW, concerning the weights, a 1958P type 2
in FBL should get 10 points, being that one probably doesn't
exist! I have been searching for one for 30+ years...
brow line may be weak or the 3 leaves are very faint or indistinct. Same comment on the Full Band dimes.
You have to have a couple shots of tequilla to see the center split on some of the slabbed FB pieces. At one time the requirement was to have full rounded bands (i.e. fully split and evenly separated). The standard has changed to become any "glimmer of separation." No thanks.
roadrunner
SLQ 1926-d PCGS MS66
Full head POP 8/0 sells for $ 45,500
non FH POP 4/0 sells for $725
Despite the fact that there are twice as may FH coins slabbed the coin sells for 6700% of the non FH. WOW!
Prices are taken from the PCGS daily price guide.
I tried to buy the non FH ms 66 and could not find one so I had to settle for an MS65 (90% FH so I paid a premium and purchased it for $475 for my registry set)--- the same story here --- $415 for the non FH and $25,000 for the FH per the price guide.
Try and tell me that the no FH is not a screaming buy!
I think it's very likely that PCGS will add grades for partial steps on Jeffersons. It could make some of the dates from 1960-1970 quite valuable even with just 2 or 3 steps.
I would like to see better descriptions on copper/bronze coins, especially those graded RB. Some are soooo close to full red that frankly, I can't see why they weren't given the RD designation. Other RB's are splotchy or almost totally brown. I won't buy a RB coin unless it's sight-seen, or has a high quality photo.
Years ago, dealers would advertise Liberty nickels as having "full corn" on the reverse, or 3 cent nickel coins with full lines in the roman numeral III.
Full strikes on Walking Liberty halves have been mentioned, but how about full heads on Seated coins, or a well defined shield and eagle's head on Kennedy halves?
There are lots of possibilities, but if there's a way for someone to make money from it, it'll probably happen.
Jim
As for franklins, Id really like to see the non FBL in high grades take off...But it may not be benificial to me because I dont really collect Mint state issues. Im just a sucker for those blast white proofs, sans the milk spots....frankie never looked better
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Wm. Dominick 1918-D dime in PCGS FB65 sells for $23,000 (including the 15% buyers fee)in Kingswood Auction tonight!!! --- and that was after it sold for $42,000 last year with Heritage.
Here is my question:Is this the future for FS, FB, FH etc. or is it just a one time occurance?
peacockcoins
Im not really experianced in auctions, My first will be ANA week in NY, just seems that way.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
I had to respond to this thread.I believe these points are the same with the Cameos and DCAM's.I decided to change my Registry Set because the prices were getting out of sight for them.That is why I sold my 1937 PR66 CAM Lincoln to White Fang.I believe you'll see more and more sets either/or instead of mixed.
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
At least with CAM & DCAM the entire coin shows the "proof" that it should command a higher grade! When you talk SLQ FH you are only talking about 2% of the coins surface and you are commanding up to a 6700% premium (see previous post in this thread).
1. The only Proof Lincolns from 1936-1942 that will REALLY matter that much 3-5 years from now will be DCAM Lincolns. Cameos will be much more common than anyone imaged, in part due to what PCGS is calling cameo these days. I personally examined one CAM Lincoln recently (that was priced about as high as the car I recently bought) that had less "CAM" than another coin I looked at with no CAM designation. DCAM will be highly sought after both in proof Lincolns and proof Indians.
2. As expected, the multiple applied for proof Lincoln cams in the years ahead will be far smaller than current multiples. In other words, these coins will be available "on the cheap" compared to present levels. On the other hand, those few and far between true DCAM Lincolns will be the "holy grail" of proof 1936-42 Lincolns.
JUST MY OPINION ONLY, WHICH, AS I SAID TO BEGIN WITH IS WORTH ABOUT 2 CENTS
I prefer a nice strong strike over all else. Fortunately in clads the highest grades
and strongest strikes have a strong tendency to go hand in hand so one doesn't
have to make a tradeoff all the time. This current tendency to grade strike by a
single design feature is probably a fad and will fade in time. The design feature
chosen is often a critical or important detail in the determination of overall strike,
so the transition to a different strike determinant may be relatively seamless for
most coins.
Beauty too, will never go out of style, and it's a safe bet some will always find beauty
in some toned coins, and in cameos.
Beauty too, will never go out of style, and it's a safe bet some will always find beauty
in some toned coins, and in cameos. >>
. . Cladking - I like that statement . You get my growl of approval. Bear
Camelot
It is interesting to note that a Pop 1/0 coin in NB is for sale right now for $750 and many of the forum members believe it is way over priced. (It is a common coin, 16-P, that previously had 10 in 66 and someone got one upgraded). I doubt I will be buying this coin, but it exemplifies the bargains available in NB.
I know that these coins will always be the step children, but one day PCGS could start a Registry for NB coins, remember they all have their own number so it would be easy to do.
Please dont start buying these up, as it is hard enough to find and pay for the coins I am chasing now.... (that was directed at the Merc folks, a great group of collectors!).
As with anything there is something out there for everyone and avoiding the high cost designators can still provide a beautiful set at a far lower cost. Just MHO.
As I said before, I believe there will always be a premium for full strike designations.
I agree with Windy that we should be headed(pun intended) for % of strike designation.
Now Windy, where I differ with your thought.
Full bands - a tiny horizontal line in the middle of the reverse.
Full bell lines - a couple of hairlines across the bottom of the bell on the reverse.
Full steps - a few small lines in in the steps of a large building on the reverse.
Full head - The head detail of Miss Liberty...the main subjet on the Obverse.
Maybe only 2%. but a very important 2%!
As Bear pointed out, "Beauty too, will never go out of style, and it's a safe bet some will always find beauty in some toned coins, and in cameos". I would add the beauty of a full head, also!
I do agree that the best buys would be non-full head w/90% of detail, as I'm sure we are headed that way!
Regards
Don
And still
Don't get me wrong...I have nothing against FH SLQ's --- as long as they are reasonalby priced and they are indeed FH!
Also, FYI, I am going to be buying several SLQ's in Chicago this week...you may get leapfrogged in the SLQ registry
I do not think it would be hard for PCGS to make percentage designations on FH,FB,Fs etc.
In this world of high tech computers & digital cameras I have to think that it would be fairly easy for a large company such as CU to "program" a digital picture system to make the desigantions for %'s based on key areas being evident or missing from the coin. The graders could continue to grade the coins for all other aspects (strike, eye appeal, wear, etc) but the FH designation could be done by an impartial computer rather than by one of DH's (to mention just one) buddies. Just kidding of course!
Hopin' "Pickin's" are Slim!
One other note:
Imagine the premium if the designation were for another part of Miss Liberty's anatomy. Can you imagine the premium for a Full Breast!
Don
Full Breasts, and
are premium for the grade then they should be able to make a reason-
able assessment of %age of strike.
A human can be inconsistent. On Mondya he may give a coin an MS67 and on a Tuesday he may give the same coin an MS66. The same can be said regarding FH designations. A computer would not be as inconsisent.
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
the coin differently from day to day, there should be relatively little variation in how
he grades the coin's various attributes. Indeed after standards are developed, there
would be relatively little difference in how any two graders would grade the coin, and
little difference from one day or one year to the next. No computers- just people. And
then we get to know a coin's condition without seeing it.--- what is grading for?
A coin is either FB, FS, FH, FBL or it is not. There will probably never be a percent designation. There are two coin listings for each one now, FB or not.. how would you factor in the percentage. This is one of those ideas that looks like it might have some merit, but would be very difficult to implement.
Computer grading is far away in my mind. Luster and eye appeal plus an "eye" for a particular series mitigates against successful implemention.
Coins are not really graded they are priced. Coins are as individual as fingerprints, and
demand changes daily for the various series and the various conditions. It's no surprise
that the "grading" of coins is always disputed by someone, and that they can't be graded
consistently by different services or over time. If they were actually graded by their attributes
then we'd know what was meant when someone says his 65-60-55-95-95 brought only $100
at auction.
Computers can't grade coins. Just people.
<< <i>I spoke with the original seller of the nice commems in the upcoming Heritage auction, and he confirms that the silent majority is snapping/bidding up the high grade white, or rim toned commems at this time. Things look good for this part of the market.
Give me a nudge when the trend is to seek "Commemoratives with Personality" (ie: spent and worn).
peacockcoins
<< <i> Luster and eye appeal plus an "eye" for a particular series mitigates against successful implemention. >>
The statement is true. My thinking that computers could be used for grading would be as an additional tool. The human grader could still grade for eye appeal, luster, strike, etc. and could be assigning the appropriate MS grade. The computer enhancements would be used only for FH, FB, FS etc designations.